Weighing my Options: Questions & Suggestions

[EL Cuajinais]

Hello all,

I’m a mechanical designer that has been monitoring the 3D printing scene every year. I think 2015 is finally the year I’m going to jump in. I’m looking seriously at the Rostock Max V2, and I have a lots of questions. All my comparisons will be to made to the Ultimaker 2 since that seems to be the industry darling (whether warranted or not). If anyone answering this post owns both the Ultimaker 2 and the Rostock Max V2, please state so in your answer, since this is the input I’m most interested in. Ok so here we go:

1. My first consideration is fumes. I live with my wife and kids and I see prints can last for days on end. I don’t want us breathing in any of it. My requirement is simple: If I can smell anything then I don’t want it inside the house. So if I end up getting the Rostock Max my plan is to assemble it inside the house next to the computer desk and use PLA (because it is based on plants) to print small calibrations objects only. Then once satisfied move it to an outside closet that is very near the computer desk so I can run a USB cable though a window and not have it in the way. Does this seem reasonable? Will I mess up the calibration by grabbing the printer and carrying it a short walk outside? Also, does the Ultimaker 2 being enclosed, do anything to minimize the smells?

2. Second consideration is print quality/resolution. How does the Rostock Max V2 compare to Ultimaker 2 in terms of print resolution. I’m interested in knowing both in the Z “layer thickness” resolution and the “in plane” resolution.

3. Though I’m a handy tinkerer, I’m not interested in tinkering with my printer. All I want is for the printer to work reliably. Given its price, I have no problem putting in 25 hours to assemble the RMax V2 and another 3 hours on calibration. And then a learning curve. But once I have it down I want everything to “just work”. How does the ease of use and reliability of the RMax V2 compare to UM2? And is the learning curve with the UM2 a lot smaller than with the RMax V2?

4. I’ve heard that the UM2 version of the Cura slicer works wonderfully with the UM2. Is there a big difference software-wise of working with UM2’s Cura vs. having many different slicers to work with RMax V2, none of which may presumably work as flawlessly?

5. Speed is not a very important factor for me, but I would also like to know how does the RMax V2 compare to the UM2 compare in terms of speed at the highest quality settings. I’ve read both printers are very fast compared to the competition, so which is the faster of the two?

6. Besides the larger build volume, is there anything that RMax V2 can do that the UM2 can’t? What about vice-versa?


Finally I have two suggestions for the seemeecnc team:

1. You sell a black version and white version of the RMax V2. But only the white version is shown on the product page. We need official pictures of both products from you guys. Potential customers should not have to search the forums for pictures of the black version. I don’t know if the black printers I’m looking at have been modded.

2. It is obvious you guys care about industrial design. The RMax2 is a thing of beauty. And this is why the “eyes logo” sticks out like a sore thumb. I’m sure you will have many customers here defend that logo. But do your research with non-costumers. Ask around. I think a good portion of the UM2’s success is due to their beautiful design. If you can maintain your price advantage, and I don’t see why not, I think you should consider putting aside a few $$$’s for re-branding the whole operation. (logo, website, and possibly name).

Thanks for sticking it out for the long read!

Regards,
Jorge

[mhackney]

Jorge,

1) PLA really has no detectable fumes. I print 8+ hours a day with the printer 3' from my desk with PLA. I don't smell a thing nor does anyone in the family. It is printing even as I type.

2) This is going to be a bit of a caveat emptor. I produce extremely accurate parts (fly fishing reels like my avatar) with a modified (new arms and carriages) Rostock. The few folks I know who have printed this reel on an UM2 have been successful but not nearly as nice as my reels. In many respects this is a lot like the photography saying "it isn't the camera that makes the photograph, it's the photographer". This is very true with 3D printing. You could have the most precise printer but unless you fully understand print dynamics, materials, etc. you will produce average quality prints.

3) You really can't even compare these. Rostock is a kit, UM2 is pre-built. There are few who would argue that Cartesian printers are less persnickety to calibrate. Given that you have a printer ready out of the box with UM 2 it will have a lower learning curve. As for reliability, I have one of the earliest Rostock V1s on the block and it has run almost everyday for 2+ years. The few issues I've had have been self induced while tinkering or experimenting. Now that I use it for actually production, it runs about 8 hours a day since the start of the year and I've had ZERO down time.

4) The situation with slicers and Cura really is that it has been tuned for the UM hardware. You could take an off the shelf version of Cura, put in the time, and get something as good or better. I have KISSlicer very finely tuned for my Rostock. Again, this is the "pre-built vs kit" question.

5) Speed and print quality are tradeoffs. The delta geometry is more optimized for fast and precise printing since there is much less moving mass. Again, it really comes down to the user and less so than the printer.

6) Rostock is open source, easily modified and can be improved as new extruders, hotends, etc come out. UM2 is closed source and not easy to modify. You get what you get.

Based on your questions and statement in #3, I would probably direct you to a pre-built printer like the UM2. But keep in mind, all printers require tinkering and some basic understanding of how they work if you want to get the best out of them.

cheers,
Michael

[mvansomeren]

Jorge,

1) PLA really has no detectable fumes. I print 8+ hours a day with the printer 3' from my desk with PLA. I don't smell a thing nor does anyone in the family. It is printing even as I type.

2) This is going to be a bit of a caveat emptor. I produce extremely accurate parts (fly fishing reels like my avatar) with a modified (new arms and carriages) Rostock. The few folks I know who have printed this reel on an UM2 have been successful but not nearly as nice as my reels. In many respects this is a lot like the photography saying "it isn't the camera that makes the photograph, it's the photographer". This is very true with 3D printing. You could have the most precise printer but unless you fully understand print dynamics, materials, etc. you will produce average quality prints.

3) You really can't even compare these. Rostock is a kit, UM2 is pre-built. There are few who would argue that Cartesian printers are less persnickety to calibrate. Given that you have a printer ready out of the box with UM 2 it will have a lower learning curve. As for reliability, I have one of the earliest Rostock V1s on the block and it has run almost everyday for 2+ years. The few issues I've had have been self induced while tinkering or experimenting. Now that I use it for actually production, it runs about 8 hours a day since the start of the year and I've had ZERO down time.

4) The situation with slicers and Cura really is that it has been tuned for the UM hardware. You could take an off the shelf version of Cura, put in the time, and get something as good or better. I have KISSlicer very finely tuned for my Rostock. Again, this is the "pre-built vs kit" question.

5) Speed and print quality are tradeoffs. The delta geometry is more optimized for fast and precise printing since there is much less moving mass. Again, it really comes down to the user and less so than the printer.

6) Rostock is open source, easily modified and can be improved as new extruders, hotends, etc come out. UM2 is closed source and not easy to modify. You get what you get.

Based on your questions and statement in #3, I would probably direct you to a pre-built printer like the UM2. But keep in mind, all printers require tinkering and some basic understanding of how they work if you want to get the best out of them.

cheers,
Michael

Well said!

[EL Cuajinais]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply Michael, I really appreciate it. I hope your awesomely comprehensive reply does not dissuade other forum members from participating on this discussion. I’m especially relieved to hear that PLA is odorless and that with a capable operator, the Rostock print quality is equal or better than the UM2. If you can indulge me once more, do you use expensive PLA filaments or cheapo eBay ones? I’ve read filament quality matters a lot for print quality and odors. In this in line with your experience? Because those $20 rolls sure look attractive (on the surface at least).

[mhackney]

I have something like 50 varieties and colors of PLA here. Everything from eBay to ColorFABB. They all print just fine for me. You won't have any odor issues with PLA no matter it's source. The print quality is directly proportional to how you print. I can tune for most any filament I've come up against, one pink "PLA" that you'll find here if you search being the exception. It turned out to be ABS.

I do print mostly with eBay PLA because it comes in some very nice colors.

[EL Cuajinais]

Got it. Many thanks again!!!

[jdurand]

I've had an Afinia H479 for a couple of years now. As my first printer having it pre-built wasn't as important as having software pre-tuned to the printer. But, eventually that gets old and I found I'm limited on what I can do with it, I've modified it to work with many different ABS brands but PLA was a stopper. My printer only likes Afinia brand PLA which limits possibilities too much.

So, now I have the Max v2 in addition, changed out the power supply without even plugging in the stock one and wired it for dual print heads on the assumption I might go there. Then, before the printer had even arrived a customer paid for me to get a Chimera head that just arrived.

I'm currently experimenting with getting the Max tuned in for using cheap filament. Not sure that will work but I couldn't even attempt it on the Afina.

I haven't had the Max long enough to give reliability, but my Afinia ran from the beginning of December to a week or so ago non-stop building products for customers. I went through close to 20kg of Afina brand filament and made the local dealer very happy.

As for computer location, I'd say to get a laptop to run your printer right next to it, there's times you'll want your finger on the keyboard while watching the printer start. A Windows 7 machine used can be had for around $130 from Amazon with a warranty. I bought a couple of fairly powerful tower computers for the office for $200 each with a year warranty on them.

[mhackney]

That's a good recommendation on running tethered - at least while you get over the learning curve and are experimenting. Once you have things down and/or you are repeating the same print, using an on-board display works great.

I estimate I've run 600Kg of PLA through my Rostock in slightly over 2 years. Plus a lot of ABS too. Some Nylon, some NinjaFlex, some polycrbonate and some more exotic materials like copperFill, carbon fiber fill. Honestly, I ran this Rostock V1 so much that the stock carriage wheel covers (Acetal) were beginning to show signs of wear. So I upgraded to Trick Trucks last weekend. But that's also a plus for Open Source, 3rd party and even roll your own options.

[EL Cuajinais]

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IT IS DONE.








After about a week of research I've just clicked the three order buttons: Amazon for tools, Matterhackers for RMax V2, and seemecnc for the .35mm nozzle. Thanks to all who posted here and also to the picture on this thread:

http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6307

I think that was the tipping point for me.

Looking forward to joining your ranks.
Thanks again.