Why is my Orion making sploogies??

[0rionN00b]

So, I've had the Orion for about 3 months, and have been knocking out 4-5 every day, probably 10-11 rolls of ABS & PLA.

I have had a lot of delamination issues which (I think have been tied to temp issues), but this one has me perplexed......

First, a shot of a typical good production outputs - typical PLA output - solid lines and good adhesion & quality.

But here's a problem output on PLA..

- 1. wall extrusions are not adhering and are stretching across open areas.
- 2. the fill lines are 'splooging' all over the fill area..

Sorry if this seems a bit graphic--i have no idea how to describe this... the printer head seems to be creating little piles of globbed up material, and the layers simply aren't adhering properly. the bottom 5-7 layers are PERFECT.. then it all goes downhill....

What am i doing wrong?

Other pertinent data:
1. My bowden tube connectors failed last week, after some time of problems... i was getting a lot of damaged filament, and started seeing powder around the extrusion feed motor, and then figured out what was happenning.. I pulled them down, removed the offending washers, superglued the tubes into the disconnects, while waiting on the replacements to arrive from SeeMeCNC..

2. I had a significant adhesion/delamination issue for some time, until I ran my head temp up a bit.. am generally running head at 219 and table at 105/90. And I also got things adhering well on the table by use of Kapton & aquanet hair spray....

3. i pulled the feed head down last week, acetoned it out and burned it out, and it seemed to work great for about.....2hrs. This also coincided with glueing the bowden tube connections...

My first 3 or four layers seem to do just fine. what else am I doing wrong??

I'm attaching my Slic3r config file......

thanks for any thoughts!

[Eaglezsoar]

With your pictures and text you indicate PLA, yet your temperatures of 219 and a bed of 105/90 is more in line with ABS
the config file is ABS. I am confused, which are you having problems with PLA or ABS?

[0rionN00b]

thx

1. having trouble with BOTH.

I've printed 10-20 items with PLA using this config, with fantastic results. yes, it's the ABS file, but worked quite well.

2. as soon as i started having the problem with the bowden tub connectors, it's started messing up on upper layers.. and hasn't gotten better...

thoughts?

[Captain Starfish]

A guess, and that's all it is based on what you're describing: your hot end is running way way colder than it thinks it is and you're going to need to calibrate it.

Failing push connectors and dust at the extruder hint at way too high a pressure on the filament which generally means it can't get through the hot end fast enough. That clomping also suggests that maybe it's not coming through freely and just sits in the head before the pressure gets high enough for it to reluctantly blob its way out.

Very similar to what I was getting before I recalibrated the firmware for my thermistor against a thermocouple reference. I found that the thermistor was reading 235º when the nozzle was at a might 195º - no wonder I was having problems!

Another thing that can cause this (also got me) a little ways into the print is the Rambo board overheating on the extruder driver chip. Are you hearing any clunking? Can you watch the extruder spindle? Do you see it bouncing backwards when there's a clunk? If so, throw a fan in front of the Rambo and see if that fixes it.

But grab a thermocouple/meter ($30 on eBay) and check your temps first.

[Eaglezsoar]

Your config looks okay. I think once you get the new PTC connectors most of your problems will be gone.
Those tubes are made with a teflon compound and superglue does not work very well. I don't want to sound
like a preacher but everyone should have PTC connectors, Hotend Resistors, and Thermistors in their spare
parts. Amazon sells the PTC for only a couple of dollars a piece and you should try to have some. Those crappy
things always break at the worst times. The one you need is the 5mm male thread. Back to your problem as
it is now. There is not a whole lot you can do, the filament doesn't know whether it is coming or going if those
tubes are not connected properly. Too much friction if the tubes are not perfectly centered in the PTC and I
doubt that superglue is going to do it. I know you want to get back to printing but I think you are going to need
the new parts. On my Orion I usually run ABS at 230c with the Aquanet strongest hold with a bed temp of 70-90c
I don't think you are doing anything wrong, you just need those new parts.

[0rionN00b]

thanks guys!

1. think the temp issue might be part of it, thogh Eaglez, you're probably still right on - i just pulled the thing down and realized I had a bit of a tension point trying to push my PLA filament thru with the unit "setup" and with a totally hot head.... makes me think there's a lot of hysterisis in the alignment problems (due to stoopidglued parts not being aligned?).. i'm also still getting a lot of powdered filings off the filament and a lot of 'chewed up' filament, which makes me think it's extruding a LOT less than the unit thinks it is.....

2. I have an infrared thermometer here - -what part of the head should i be reading??

[Eaglezsoar]

thanks guys!

1. think the temp issue might be part of it, thogh Eaglez, you're probably still right on - i just pulled the thing down and realized I had a bit of a tension point trying to push my PLA filament thru with the unit "setup" and with a totally hot head.... makes me think there's a lot of hysterisis in the alignment problems (due to stoopidglued parts not being aligned?).. i'm also still getting a lot of powdered filings off the filament and a lot of 'chewed up' filament, which makes me think it's extruding a LOT less than the unit thinks it is.....

2. I have an infrared thermometer here - -what part of the head should i be reading??

Infrared thermometers will not work on a hotend, there is too much reflectivity in the metal parts.
You must use a thermocouple. Expensive hobby isn't it.

[0rionN00b]

well, much more success.....after a bit of agony..

1. I removed my plexiglass surround (Which I had originally built to cut down noise and air fluctuations around the printer)..
2. I tweaked out my temps a bit... 215/215 and 105/90..
3. I removed the tip, melted it out and used a small pic set to clean it out really well..
4. I cleaned out the extrusion motor, which had been 'gunked up' with tons of powder from previous feeder shavings off of filament.

Am currently printing a rather tall device and it's looking darn-near perfect thus far...

Thanks for the thoughts.. I definitely need new PTC & tubing, and will likely extend my bowden tube much longer (seemeCNC has it at about 1m, but IMHO it should be 2x's that long, as the tube is getting a near 90 degree bend in it because of the tension when it's fully retracted)...THey (SeemeCNC folks) are sending me these parts so i'll install and give it a whirl.. am hoping that'll fix the issues.



While we're on the subject, anybody got a good idea of HOW to lay down Kapton tape without bubbles or wrinkles??

[Batteau62]

This is the trick for vinyl or any waterproof substrate. Not sure how the soap will affect the glue line with heated bed? Worth a try. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQ0WhonnBM
Getting it down dry requires you to keep a slight arc in the tack line as it goes down. Basically pushing the air out from the center of the tape. Very tricky to do. Good luck

[0rionN00b]

ARRRRGG.. well it's back again.

I printed a couple parts last night, no problems.

Then left an overnight running on a pretty heavy/solid part. It's a solid spool for a buddy's tool shop, to coil up some wiring on..

THe first 3/4 printed nearly perfect, as you can see from the photos below.

Then the same thing happened...
Any ideas?? this one's driving me nuts!

oh, and thanks for the Kapton tape hint - will try that today...

[geneb]

If that's PLA, check to make sure the PEEK fan is still operating properly. It looks to me like what happens when heat creep starts to swell the PLA and jam it.

g.

[Eaglezsoar]

Until you get the parts changed it is probably going to continue to happen.

[0rionN00b]

If that's PLA, check to make sure the PEEK fan is still operating properly. It looks to me like what happens when heat creep starts to swell the PLA and jam it.

g.

tx... I've been running it on 25% - - what should i set it?? Also, is there a way to config it to automatically ramp up over time? bear in mind I'm running everything off SD cards - don't like having to worry about computer communication issues, so I load my .gcodes onto a card and dump on the printer.....

I pulled it down, and yes, it appears to have crept way up - had a good 2" of "blob" up inside the feed tube.. that was a bit of a mess to get out.

I had a bit of a challenge with the connectors causing some drag - pulled 'em down and refitted them.. (still waiting on the parts to get here from SeeemeCNC - thought they would've made it here in 5 days from IN!!)

[Eaglezsoar]

That Peek fan should be run at 100% at all times, not ramping or any thing other than 100%.

[0rionN00b]

That Peek fan should be run at 100% at all times, not ramping or any thing other than 100%.

Eaglez,

thanks for that note.

I've been running a new run (having duct-taped everything together again, hand-filed my tube tips and cleaned out the extruder motor feed), and have been baby-sitting it for some time now. it's about 75% finished, and looking perfect.
Previously, the entire prints were so hot that they had a 'shiny' finish (almost liquid) much of the time.. I think the majority of the issue was too much heat on the head area..

One interesting thing I've noticed:
If i put fan on 100%, the fan overcomes the heater, and it dips down into the low 180s... If i put it at 50%, it keeps up at 215.... Even at 75% it can "almost" keep the head temp up all the time....

How cold can it (the extruder head) get before I run into problems on PLA?

ANd..... If it DOES get too cold, will the Orion stop and retract the head while it re-heats it?

[Eaglezsoar]

Have you done PID Tuning on the hotend while the peek fan is running at 100% as it should be.
Since I believe the answer is no, the first thing that should be done is to do the PID Tuning.
Download the Rostock Max assembly guide and in there you will find a section on how to do this
tuning on the hotend. The peek fan should be at 100% for this tuning. I keep repeating myself
because I am trying to make the point that the peek fan should be on at all times and at 100%
speed. You can download the Rostock Max assembly manual here: http://www.geneb.org/rostock-max/Rostoc ... -Guide.pdf

[Captain Starfish]

It may be being idiotically obvious, but I'll mention it because it's usually the idiotically obvious things that catch me up: Are we talking about the same fan? PEEK fan goes to the plastic fins on the hot-end barrel and should run flat out whenever the hot end is hot. I think hanging its power off the HEAT 2 output on the RAMBO with the SeeMe firmware does this automatically. The PEEK fan shouldn't affect the nozzle temperature at all. The Layer fan, on the other hand, is usually driven by the "fan" control on the Repetier Host page or via the LCD, is tuneable to various percentages and, depending on the shroud used, could cause serious swings in the hot end temperature.

[Eaglezsoar]

Captain, I think you hit the nail on the head. Why would SeemeCNC make a peek fan adjustable? They would not.
The fan then has to be the layer fan. I missed that one. Lets do this over, you can run the layer fan at whatever
speed you like. The peek fan should come on automatically and you should not have any control over the speed.
The one thing that doesn't make sense is why he is getting PLA jams inside the hotend.
0rionN00b can you verify that the small Peek fan is running when the hotend is hot. I know that it is tight in there
but we need to verify if the fan is running. As Captain Starfish has said that fan comes on automatically when the
hotend heats up and it is suspect when you start getting jams halfway up the hotend. The purpose of the Peek fan
is to keep that area cool so that the filament does not soften up enough to jam it also protects the Peek part of the
hotend from melting. So now that the good Captain has straightened us out, you can run your layer fan at whatever
speed works for you. I still think that your prints are not going to be very good until those parts come.

[Eaglezsoar]

It may be being idiotically obvious, but I'll mention it because it's usually the idiotically obvious things that catch me up: Are we talking about the same fan? PEEK fan goes to the plastic fins on the hot-end barrel and should run flat out whenever the hot end is hot. I think hanging its power off the HEAT 2 output on the RAMBO with the SeeMe firmware does this automatically. The PEEK fan shouldn't affect the nozzle temperature at all. The Layer fan, on the other hand, is usually driven by the "fan" control on the Repetier Host page or via the LCD, is tuneable to various percentages and, depending on the shroud used, could cause serious swings in the hot end temperature.

I owe you one Captain, doing this stuff as long as I have and I got confused over what fan the user was talking about.
Many thanks for keeping me from becoming a complete idiot, the other part of my idiocy is permanent I'm afraid.

[Captain Starfish]

Hey, I only mentioned it because it took a couple of weeks for the penny to drop that there were possibly TWO fans on the effector platform when I only received one with my Max. I added one and one and got two when I saw a fan on the PEEK, a fan control in the Repetier software, and thought they were connected when I should have realised 1+1 = 11.



Assuming electronics are same from Max to Orion, it's also quite possible the OP has his PEEK fan connected to the layer fan output on the RAMBO in which case he could be controlling PEEK fan speed. Or plugged into Heat 1 for automatic on with the hot end and stay on until it drops under 50º. Or plugged into FAN1 which requires the M??? command to switch it on and off.

Too many choices!! Still. With the Orion I guess it arrives pre-assembled and thus should only be set up one way - I just dunno what that way is.

[geneb]

The PEEK barrel fans come pre-wired and pre-installed. The layer fan (if he's using Andy's 30mm squirrel cage fan mount) doesn't effect the hot end temp even when at 100%.

If the material is really glassy looking when extruded, the hot end temp may be high enough that it's preventing the PEEK fan from cooling the barrel sufficiently to keep PLA from swelling in the PTFE liner.

g.

[Eaglezsoar]

The PEEK barrel fans come pre-wired and pre-installed. The layer fan (if he's using Andy's 30mm squirrel cage fan mount) doesn't effect the hot end temp even when at 100%.

If the material is really glassy looking when extruded, the hot end temp may be high enough that it's preventing the PEEK fan from cooling the barrel sufficiently to keep PLA from swelling in the PTFE liner.

g.

Thanks for your help with this one, he really had me confused about the fans from the very beginning, I won't go down that path again.
I learned a valuable lesson, when a user talks about fans make absolutely sure that they are identifying the correct fan.

[0rionN00b]

Captain, I think you hit the nail on the head. Why would SeemeCNC make a peek fan adjustable? They would not.
The fan then has to be the layer fan. I missed that one. Lets do this over, you can run the layer fan at whatever
speed you like. The peek fan should come on automatically and you should not have any control over the speed.
The one thing that doesn't make sense is why he is getting PLA jams inside the hotend.
0rionN00b can you verify that the small Peek fan is running when the hotend is hot. I know that it is tight in there
but we need to verify if the fan is running. As Captain Starfish has said that fan comes on automatically when the
hotend heats up and it is suspect when you start getting jams halfway up the hotend. The purpose of the Peek fan
is to keep that area cool so that the filament does not soften up enough to jam it also protects the Peek part of the
hotend from melting. So now that the good Captain has straightened us out, you can run your layer fan at whatever
speed works for you. I still think that your prints are not going to be very good until those parts come.

sorry guys... didn't take time to answer you - I've been busy in the back room banging my head on the brick wall.....

1. you're right about the PEEK fan.. I was talking about the incorrect fan - I was talking about the layer fan.. I've not tweaked the PEEK fan control at all.

It came set to whatever it's set to. I haven't tweaked it. I've been playing with the layer fan only (primarily because the one that came on the printer has an aweful whine)

2. So, yesterday, I went thru a bunch of stuff and tweaked out the tube and connectors, etc... It seemed all good.. and I even printed a damn near perfect part.

Then I put another item up to print, and it went right back to the original problem. AGGGGGGH!!!

So... WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG??

I'm wondering if the heater temp is really that far out of whack... I'm waiting on thermistors to arrive, so i can properly test it..

First, it's now happenning faster than before.... the unit quits feeding prior to finishing the first layer.
Second, if i "help" the filament thru the extrusion motor, it'll still feed, and will extrude just fine. But if I don't, it basically sits and chews up the plastic terribly...
I've tried this on both ABS & PLA, and am having identical issues.....

Help!?!?

[Eaglezsoar]

0rionN00b, you are experiencing a great deal of friction somewhere between the extruder and the hotend.
When are those new parts supposed to arrive?

Boy am I glad that we quit chasing our tails on the peek fan. Once we figured out that we were really talking about the layer fan it all made sense.
Sir, you need those parts, have you contacted SeemeCNC to find out if and when they were shipped? I am not there to see the printer but I still
feel that with superglued tubes, etc, everything is misaligned and causing most of your grief. Please let me know what you find out from SeeMeCNC.
When you go to the Orion LCD and tell it to preheat ABS do you hear that Peek fan come on?

[0rionN00b]

0rionN00b, you are experiencing a great deal of friction somewhere between the extruder and the hotend.
When are those new parts supposed to arrive?

Boy am I glad that we quit chasing our tails on the peek fan. Once we figured out that we were really talking about the layer fan it all made sense.
Sir, you need those parts, have you contacted SeemeCNC to find out if and when they were shipped? I am not there to see the printer but I still
feel that with superglued tubes, etc, everything is misaligned and causing most of your grief. Please let me know what you find out from SeeMeCNC.
When you go to the Orion LCD and tell it to preheat ABS do you hear that Peek fan come on?

Here's the problem--I **GOT THEM THIS MORNING** and this is *AFTER* installation!
- sorry I forgot to mention this!
The strange thing is that it really is NOT any different than previous issue.

THe Peek fan runs more or less ALL the time, at about the same speed, when the unit is on.. I don't hear it ramping up or down at any way.....