Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Windshadow
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Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

I am a retired Pilot and lifetime Home Shop Machinest with an good home workshop in my basement.
it looks like the only extras i will need to buy are the UltraCoper RTV and the 1/2" Kapton tape :D
I mostly build Working model stationary steam engines and I also machine part for antique firearms and other mechanical antiques.
In my workshop I have right now
Atlas 12 x 36" Back geared, quick change, screw cutting lathe built in 1952 but it is very well tooled
J head Bridgeport Mill with Heidenhan Positip 855 glass scales 4 of them 2 on the Z axis for a floating zero on on the quit and one on the knee the position 855 lets me turn the handles semiCAM wit rapid traverse indicators to move the cutter where it need to go for each step. since I seldom do more than 5 or 6 identical parts its enough with its things like built in hole parent generator. for the curious about this antique http://content.heidenhain.de/doku/oma_n ... 873821.pdf is the lathe version of the manual i did not see the milling machine version on their website. found this shows my 4 scale setup the mill was delivered to the Hamilton Standard propeller factory in 1956
http://www.atechauthority.com/pdf/pt855_manual.pdf
where did the last 17 years go it seems like yesterday I got the 855
Schaublin 102 Instrument makers high speed collet lathe while i have to work on the vintage Atlas to hold .001" parts tolerance on the Schaublin i can make parts to .0001" tolerance with a bit less effort It came out of the Bulova Watch Factory and was built in 1964
Delta Floor type drill press built in 1952
7"shaper built in 1943 has a war production word plate apologising for the war finish used on it
Pedestal grinder
the above all have 3 phase meters and individual Freqrol units to create the 3 phase and adjust their speeds
Small heat treating oven
and all the other stuff a small machine shop of 30 years accumulates

This will be my first 3D printer and my first project involving electronics since I built a Heathkit color TV as a teenager
so expect to see me asking lots of questions. the last serious programing I did was in 6502 assembler in the late 70s
I plan to use OnShape https://www.onshape.com and so I have that to learn as well but I do have some working knowledge of solid modeling and did QA beta tested for few of them on the Apple Macintosh between 1995 and 2004

I came here and placed my Cyber Monday order from doing diligent research and the community here is one of major reasons. several youtube videos helped but the record of constant improvement and the realitivly open architecture and ability to use different filament materials were other reasons. I doubt I will ever need the full build envelope but its nice to have it just in case...the very clear manual which i skimmed before i ordered is another reason.

so reading the manuals and awaiting my MaxV2 arrival and wondering if i should put it under the tree till Dec 25 or get stuck in the moment is turns up.

I strongly suspect the later but I did see a post about a Probe update due by the end of the year and I wonder if
I should wait for it before I build. (i.e. how much unbuild ing will be needed to incorporate the kit and do they have an idea of how much it will cost.

Cheers
Windy
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by mhackney »

Welcome aboard to another New Englander.

I would strongly suggest assembling it as soon as it shows up! That way you can spend Christmas printing or, print some unique Christmas gifts!

Don't wait for a "probe update" we've been printing on Rostocks for years without a probe. With your machining background, you'll be able to calibrate. Plus, things always take longer to release (not unique to SeeMeCNC).

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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Thanks for the welcome... I guess I got a bit wordy on may intro post But I felt it easier to set out a bit of background...
I have looked at some of your stuff and its amazing! loved the photo with your machine in the seat of your Porsche, Reading the two posts in you sig line right now.
My dad was a fly fisherman but I never got the fishing bug. it was the shooting and sailing sports for me.

My wheels are a 2004 MINI Cooper S I bought new when I retired and moved to Maine from Nantucket Island
i did the super charger and the chip mods and it dinos at 205 up from the stock 185 on 93 octane just cause I am old does not mean i can't have fun.

Since my only family is my sister in Santa Fe NM (retired architect she is the smart one in the family ) we are both single and no kids so we do a FaceTime gift exchange on Christmas day.... so i guess this week I should get either a shipping notice or an expected ship date from the SeeMeCNC folks... i better scare up that Copper RTV... or would I be better off getting a canned heater? one of the reviews on amazon was rather harsh on the RTV usage.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by mhackney »

Mini Cooper S's are nice little riders - especially supercharged!

Personally, I prefer the cartridge heaters and have used them exclusively for several years now. But, I am not running the kit hot end and I'm not sure how the cartridges fit since it was designed for the resistor. I'd recommend building everything stock first. The hotend works quite well and the resistor has proven reliable. I used Copper RTV on mine when I originally built it, no problems at all. You can get it at Amazon for cheap if you don't have a FLAPS (as a car guy, I'm sure you know what that is!).

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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

Thanks I know good advice when I hear it Stick to the stock build and learn the craft and its inns and outs.... then modify one thing at a time and nail it down to push the envelope
I am doing this for fun and don't have deadline where i have to print a perfect part... so keep the printer area build clean and the beer handy (in moderation of course)
and enjoy the adventure of something totally new....
I doubt I will need to get my Full set of former Ford Engineering Jo Blocks out of storage for this project though they can stay in my humidity controlled metrology cabinet.
Since I doubt the MidCoast Maine FLAPS has Kapton tape I just did an amazon order for the 2 items
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Windshadow wrote:Thanks I know good advice when I hear it Stick to the stock build and learn the craft and its inns and outs.... then modify one thing at a time and nail it down to push the envelope
I am doing this for fun and don't have deadline where i have to print a perfect part... so keep the printer area build clean and the beer handy (in moderation of course)
and enjoy the adventure of something totally new....
I doubt I will need to get my Full set of former Ford Engineering Jo Blocks out of storage for this project though they can stay in my humidity controlled metrology cabinet.
Since I doubt the MidCoast Maine FLAPS has Kapton tape I just did an amazon order for the 2 items
You are exactly right!
I would also like to welcome you to the forum and we are looking forward to your "lots of questions" during your build.
Have a great build!
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Windshadow
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Not sure where to start with my dumb new to the subject questions....

I do plan to start a thread on my build when my MaxR2 gets here Monday afternoon but in the meantime I have been reading the manual getting my build space setup in my living room and laying out the needed tools (including a real 10-32 tap and tap handle rather than a socket head cap screw :mrgreen: ) and deciding what to do about my cad needs (OnShape or AutoDesk Fusion360 or Strata Design 3D SE 7 even though the Fusion one will be the hardest to learn right now it seems to be the best bet)

right now I have been spending time reading threads with interesting titles or these that are stickied or are started by some of the obvious rock stars here the most useful at the moment I think has been
http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361 from Mhackney as it does serve to focus the mind on e what is needed at the moment.

I am not going to do any mods during the build other than a set of Stepper motor isolators to reduce noise from Trick laser. But I have bee running across terms I do not understand in the threads here and then veering off to google to try to learn about them as I do have what my folks called a "Magpie Mind" and I think I need to learn more so I can frame and ask intelligent questions. Modding can wait till I learn how to create a decent print in both ABS and PLA.

So far I have found out that this community is even more amazing than I thought it was while I was doing mu "what printer kit will I get" research but one item is how many different boards are on this forum I have yet to discover which ones I should concentrate on. I do know I made the right choice of printer because of the community I have found here.

I am seriously thinking of going to the auto parts store and getting some quick disconnects for the various wire sizes used ((as I am a tinkerer by nature with a fully equipped machine shop (of the pre CAM era ;) ) which means it will be hard to avoid looking at some parts made of wood or plastic and dashing down to the shop to make a metal version.) if you have any recommend lines of quick disconnects (I assume from my manual reading so far that 2, 3, and 4 wire sort will the most useful) I can also head to a radio shack or even buy from amazon or other online source....So in addition to the sort used for autos perhaps the light weight kind as used in RC might be useful for the low current hookups. GeneB said that they used to be called for in the first version but that they caused too many support calls. I think I can use them with out becoming a support burden.

I read last night the thread about Thermistor calibration and as I use thermocouple tech in my heat treating oven (and the stuff needed for accurate work above 2000f is not cheap)it made a lot of sense but i wish that the reasons for using the Thermistors to start with rather than thermocouples had been a bit more clear, the price of good unable thermocouples for the range needed in 3D printing is quite cheap http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FFYEPVQ is only 17 bucks and comes with probes good to 250 C is it because the rambo controllers don't have the needed circuitry to use them? Its just i saw a lot of threads in my browsing about the failure of thermistors or having them fall out of the hot end that I wondered why they were still used at all. in other words I got confused about what was used for temp measurement and what was used to heat the hot end

I have doped out that E3D V6 and Kraken are the roles royce of hotend hotness and are quite a way in the future for me, and that FSR is some sort of add-on to enable auto calibration(I think) but is there e thread that details the terminology used here? or perhaps a good ebook for those entering this space

some of the threads in the Tips section run to a lot of pages which are tough for a beginner to wade through with out knowing the lingo and the slang...(snott really? i think is that glob that forms at the print head I see in some of the videos mostly at the start of print when fresh plastic is filling the extruder but it did take me a while to figure it out.

Once I start building (some time Monday depending on when UPS gets here with my kit) expect a lot more questions but fly now thanks for looking at this and perhaps set me straight on any misconceptions you see here.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Eaglezsoar »

You can use a thermocouple on the Hot end if you get this board to convert the voltages: http://www.filastruder.com/collections/ ... board-v1-0

I think your ideas for quick disconnects is a good one and you should use what you feel are the best.

I am also looking forward to the pictures that you indicated that you will post.

Happy building and printing.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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I saved that info in my future folder. eventually I plan to do a lot of messing around with the hot end as with my machine shop and its swiss instrument makes lathe i can even make my ownnozels out steel or phosphor bronze if I ever want to play with the more abrasive filaments... i like the idea of cartridge heaters (the copper RTV just looks messy to me I knows makes good economic sense) so once I get to the point of making decent prints in basic ABS and PLA of the things that interest me like antique gun lock designs and clock escapements i will go in search of hot end DXF files to play with,

Right now I don't even know what is meant by the different mount types I see being talked about for the various hot ends E3D or Groove mount or J head (to me a J head is what I have on my Bridgeport milling machine. it means its quill uses R-8 collets) or what sort that we build in the kit. I am starting at a low level...

Nor do I have clue what makes a good hot end or any other part yet. My plan is to take a lot of notes as I learn... as one thing I have learned from tasks like loading my own .45 colt ammo for SASS cowboy action shooting (my summer hobby sassnet.com) i need to load up about 2500 rounds (and cast that number of 250 grain lead slugs) each winter for my warm weather shooting fun and while I noticed in passing things that could be done in a better way on my Dillon progressive loader i did not make notes about them and now i have learned to accommodate them with out thinking about it... any chance of making minor improvements is sort of gone.

are there any ebooks that the gang here recommend for some one starting out at my level?
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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How are the Trick Laser stepper dampers working for you? I got the steel & rubber ones from this page: http://www.tridprinting.com/Electronics/ - they completely isolate the metal, so there are no screws going from the frame to the steppers at all. Best mod I ever did for my Rostock, hands down. I can BARELY hear the axis motors. The loudest thing on the printer now is the EXTRUDER!

One of the most popular upgrades is to get an E3D all-metal hot end. Most will get the single-extrusion model, currently at version 6. They sell hardened steel nozzles for use with metallic/carbon fiber/etc. filament. They also sell more exotic hot ends, like the Chimera/Cyclops (dual-extrusion) and Kraken (supports anywhere from 1 to 4 extruders). They also have a Volcano model, intended for printing large things quickly with massive layer heights.

To get the best print quality possible, I recommend getting a geared extruder from here and a matching hobbed bolt (must use 8mm bore) from here. This requires a printable adapter plate to work with the EZStruder. This extruder is especially nice for use with PLA, and will eliminate the "tick-tick-tick" of the extruder skipping because there's too much backpressure. Nothing short of a complete jam will make this extruder skip. You might want to order some extra PTC fittings as the ones that ship with the Rostock use metal collets that will eventually bend and break. E3D uses John Guest fittings with plastic collets - much better, but sadly they don't fit the EZStruder. But, at least you'd be getting rid of one of the two more flimsy PTC fittings.

For excellent retraction performance, our forum members, who are mostly geniuses, have figured out two things: Sponge a small length of the filament down with a little canola oil (don't need much), and set your retract speed to 15-25mm/sec. The canola oil will greatly reduce friction inside the Bowden tube, and the "slow" retraction speeds are great at reducing blobbing and stringing when the hot end needs to retract. A lot of people assume you should retract at 60 or 100mm/sec, but PLA hates that!

I learned to fly some years ago, and owned a small LSA with a Rotax 912 engine for awhile. I LOVED that thing! Worked on my instrument rating, but never sat for the exam - priorities changed. What did you fly?
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by mhackney »

There's a lot of great info in the ezStruder essential mods thread (do a search). You can use one of the E3D-online Groove mount Bowden fittings with their John Guest coupler on the ezStruder - it just takes two 4 mm washers to shim it in place. Ive used modified ezStruders for a long time (geared steppers, etc) but the Cyclops hot end was to much of a challenge. I ended up trying the BondTech QR and I love them (got 2) so much that I ordered 6 more to upgrade all my printers. This thing puts out an obviously more consistent bead of filament (it uses a geared stepper and has 2 drive gears to "squeeze" the filament as it pushes forward.)

Pilot626, looks like you were serious about canola (I read your post in bot's thread first)

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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Well I am still assembling so no word yet on how the cork isolators will do yet. My kit came with a broken pyrex build plate and due to an error in the shipping department for the replacement I won't see it till after dark on Monday and I have adjusted my build speed accordingly.

I have sent my best friend who lives in England and is messing about with a Mendel2 a v6 HotEnd Full Kit - 1.75mm Universal (with Bowden add-on) (12v) complete with all the nozzle sizes as an Xmas gift so I plan to see how he does with that for now I am using the Stock kit Hotend with one mod I made up the computer board standoff holder for the thermistor and taped the hot block 3mm X.5 (its handy having an equipped machine shop in my basement. I have taps and dies in 6 different systems) as I got frustrated wrapping the hot block with caption tape and having the RTV fixed thermistor keep falling out.

I will keep that extruder you recommend in mind but for initial calibration and testing and learning I want to keep things as stock as I can. and so I think I will start off with the kilo of black ABS that I bought with the kit. Thanks for the tip about the collets. I had another tip for the extruder was to make a small homer for a slug of kitchen sponge to draw the filament through to be sure it is clean of dust before it enters the extruder I have a 12X12 piece of thin PEI coming as an Xmas gift from my friend and I will mount it to one of my spare build plates (when I saw the shattered one when I unpacked my kit I decided to buy a couple of spares.)

I plan to follow the Mhackney guide to better prints http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361 as if its it is holy writ :)

My flying career started when at about age 12 I washed airplanes at my local airport in return for stick time and lessons. I took my private pilot test on my 16th birthday and at 18m I had my commercial, multi engine and instrument ratings and 6 months later CFI and CFII as well as AGI and IGI and when I got my ATP I had a 727 flight engineer and a celestial navigator rating with it (One of the last of those I am told Though I never got to take a sight in the air, I was a yacht navagusser from about age 12 for my uncle for things like the Newport Bermuda race)) as well

When I was at college I worked weekends for a big used aircraft dealer picking up and delivering planes (and teaching new owners how to fly them when I delivered them.) of all types for him... everything from Prewar biplanes and AT-6 T50 WW2 trainers to what were modern and new light aircraft in the late 60s and early 70s... as a result I have over 80 different aircraft types in my log book... I loved to fly and it beat hell out of working for a living until they caught me at it :D . I had to hang it up back in 84 due to medical problems So I never flew anything with a Rotax... I did fly planes with the big P&W radial engines...and even the DC-3 for a few months.... (I have very little jet time I was copilot on 727 when I had to quit).

I have been reading your posts in lots of threads and I look forward to picking the minds of all of you 3D VETERANS Where is the smilie for long white beard :) Right now I just want to finish the build and learn how to use my printer.... I expect it will take quite a while but in 3 or 4 months I will be looking at mods etc.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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mhackney wrote:There's a lot of great info in the ezStruder essential mods thread (do a search). You can use one of the E3D-online Groove mount Bowden fittings with their John Guest coupler on the ezStruder - it just takes two 4 mm washers to shim it in place. Ive used modified ezStruders for a long time (geared steppers, etc) but the Cyclops hot end was to much of a challenge. I ended up trying the BondTech QR and I love them (got 2) so much that I ordered 6 more to upgrade all my printers. This thing puts out an obviously more consistent bead of filament (it uses a geared stepper and has 2 drive gears to "squeeze" the filament as it pushes forward.)

Pilot626, looks like you were serious about canola (I read your post in bot's thread first)
I have seen some photos and videos where the bowden tube is not routed via the hot end harness but is on its own from the extruder to the hot end. The manual says to put it in the harness

is this considered the best way of running the tube or is on its own better?
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by mhackney »

It's convenient and no chance of entanglement to run them all together. With the Kraken I had two such harnesses each servicing 2 hot ends. That was a sight to see.

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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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I envy your career. Airplanes are so much fun, and I tried to fly different ones whenever they were available. The "biggest deals" were a brand-new C182 (this thing had air conditioning) and a Mooney M20J. I liked the Mooney better, but it was cramped! Tried one of the new Super Cubs too. It was a little too vulnerable to turbulence, but otherwise fun to fly. No vertical speed indicator. The Rotax engines are really neat. I could fly from Los Angeles to Las Vegas in about an hour and twenty, doing 115-120 knots true at somewhere around 5GPH, and it would burn mogas or 100LL. The engine has an integrated generator driven by magnets on the output shaft - no belt. Some of the coils are dedicated to the ignition system, and the rest go to power the radios and lights. No mixture knob or carb heat either, as the carburetor leaned itself (some kind of rubber bulb contraption I think) and was self-heating. I took it up to 12,500' once and it did alright. Airplanes are magical, and I'd like to own another some day.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Your mention of the Mooney M20 series brought back a very pleasant memory of my early flying career long before I had my Commercial license when I was still washing planes and detailing the insides in return for stick time.... one of my regulars had a Cessna 195B (Tail dragger radial engine (Jacobs 300 HP radial on his) that was my step up for the piper cub tat was one of the primary trainers I learned on.... I could go on quite a bit about the 195 but like many Radial engine aircraft the joke was that you told the lineman to check the gas and fill the oil (5 US Gal oil tank with 2 Gal the minimum for flight) it was also one of the first aircraft with a constant speed prop that I learned to fly.

The owner Bought a brand new Mooney Super 21 The M20E and it was my introduction to retractable landing gear. it was wonderful plane for that as it had manual gear a big long lever between the front seats it was so physical that I don't see how anyone could ever forget it. It was fast enough that it taught the need to have your mind well in front of the airplane when thinking about decent and landing so you did not arrive at too high a speed for the pattern I loved the way it handled. but if you thought the M20J was cramped ... well fitting my 6'3" flame in the shorter cabin of the E meant it only had space behind my seat for someone with no legs!
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by 626Pilot »

I do remember on the test flight I took in the Mooney, the other pilot told me to plan my speed several minutes in advance. This particular airplane had been retrofitted with some air brakes, which were just aluminum extrusions that could be made to pop up out of the tops of the wings. They were small, but highly effective. He also told me the landing gear was a great way to slow down, and it was. I decided against buying it because it was just all over me. Constant crowding on my arms and legs, and I was worried about the headroom. I didn't want to come back shorter if there was bad turbulence. (Less of a problem in a Mooney than some other planes, as the wing loading is gentler.) The airplane I did buy wasn't much larger, but somehow they figured out how to make it REALLY roomy. I think planes these days are designed for fatter people.

I saw a Cessna 195 - pretty big tail dragger, radial engine, oil pan under the engine whenever it was in the hangar. The amount of oil it consumed was a perpetual joke. It was very nicely detailed, new interior and fresh paint. Whoever bought that thing had their work cut out for them, but I doubt anyone but a true enthusiast would buy a classic plane with a radial engine. The MX budget alone would be ridiculous. There was also one of those "pushmepullyou" Cessnas, one engine in the nose and the other off the tail. That was an interesting looking airplane.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

Well this is my first try at 3d bench tug boat as a time lapse... i think its ok except for a few zits took about 100 min to print SeeMeCNC ABS midnight black 228 and 80c
Grateful for any improvement tips on this one or the one I posed here http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=9573
http://youtu.be/fOqN1PF930s

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqN1PF930s[/youtube]
Thanks KAS

[img]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8194 ... enchy1.JPG[/img]

[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/819 ... enchy2.JPG[/img]
Tomorrow I will be printing a selection of E3D V6 mounts that I found on line including yours to see which one fits the new SeeMeCNC ball effector the best with the trick Laser LED ring
Last edited by Windshadow on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Eaglezsoar »

instead of https: use http: when embedding the youtube links.
Edit your post and see if it works when you get the s out. :)
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

nope... still does not appear i pulled the s from the plain url tag as well

what do i need to change to be able to reed the transom letters? am i right the .05mm nozzle is to large for such small letters? in the video you feel like they are almost there
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

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Windshadow wrote:nope... still does not appear i pulled the s from the plain url tag as well

what do i need to change to be able to reed the transom letters? am i right the .05mm nozzle is to large for such small letters? in the video you feel like they are almost there
See this link about youtube postings and see if it makes any sense to you. http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5386

If you have a smaller nozzle I would certainly give it a try. The fine details are not going to be as clear as they would be with a smaller nozzle. The smaller nozzle would introduce
new problems and experimenting to get the settings correct in the slicer. This is what makes 3D printing fun! :)
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Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

thanks, i made the change from that thread still no go displaying the video

I want to try making my own nozzles a bit later and i am finding the thread on the bond tech geared extruders fascinating, my sister sent me a E3D v6 kit for Xmas but I have not built it yet I just ordered the 713maker.com mount for it though and the YellowJacket plate as well.

the fun I have had building and learning how to use this printer already has me thinking about a what next to build. I was thinking of trying one of the laser engraver add on kits I have seen online but I think I might be better off waiting for one of the experts here to try it first. I would love to add a laser or water jet cutter to my shop but but I don't see how I could afford one right now and there are no maker spaces within several hundred miles from here
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KAS
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 1157
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by KAS »

You need the root url for youtube to embed here. Remove S from HTTPS and remove the "&feature=youtu.be" from the end of the url.


It should look like this link:

Code: Select all

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqN1PF930s[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqN1PF930s[/youtube]
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Windshadow
Printmaster!
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Mid Coast Maine

Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

Thanks KAS
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Windshadow
Printmaster!
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Mid Coast Maine

Re: Hi From MidCoast Maine

Post by Windshadow »

The fun of Maine in the winter... temp when I got up this morning was about -5 F and while I was getting set up to do some test printing I heard running water. yep it had warmed up enough to thaw pipes that had frozen and broken in about 6 area of the basement plumbers are here now replacing the broken pipes (actually in 2 cases copper pipe fittings that had pulled apart in heating system lines) so between that and the mess my time for printing will be rather restricted today...

pipes broke in the same area about 10 years ago but I thought we had fixed it but that break was in another line it has been down to -27 f several times over the last 10 years with no problems.... ah enough venting.
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