Hello from Ithaca, New York - and basic hot end question

[teejaydub]

Hi all. I'm a software engineer and hardware designer, with experience in 3D animation. I got started in 3D printing a bit over a year ago when some friends (Melba Kurman and Hod Lipson, co-authors of Fabricated: The New World of 3D Printing http://www.amazon.com/Fabricated-The-Ne ... 1118350634 and involved from the beginning of the Cornell Fab@Home project) lent me a Cube printer that 3DSystems sent them as a promotional. 263 prints later, I was utterly addicted... and they needed it back to add to a pool of printers for the lab portion of a summer course. That was in early June and I have been feeling bereaved ever since.

My search for a replacement is a long story, but I just ordered an Orion and am looking forward to trying it out!

Thank you all already for the copious information available on these boards.

I have one question so far: Does anyone know if the newly-shipping Orions will include a hot end that can support printing in nylon at 240+ C? I initially thought yes, because nylon filament is offered on the SeeMeCNC shop and the blurb for the Orion stresses that it can print many materials; then I read some forum posts that made me think no, the stock one had a PEEK liner that would melt, or at least deform. Now I have the impression that the latest and greatest hot end will ship automatically with new Orions, and that it's up to the task. Is that true, or would I need to upgrade the hot end? If I can get a definitive answer, I'll see if I can add some nylon to my order.

Thanks!

[Eaglezsoar]

Welcome to the Forum!
The new Orions still use a peek hotend and running at 240+ will deform the peek.
The E3D version 6 hotend is recommended but you would need to print a mount for it.
Mounts are available at http://repables.com/r/296/

You also can get the E3D v6 at http://www.filastruder.com/products/all ... -v6-hotend (get the bowden variety)
They are in the US if you do not want to wait for the UK version.

Obviously print out the mount before swapping the hotends.

There is a topic on the E3D V6 hotends at http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=5567

[teejaydub]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification! Seems like a simple upgrade.

I wonder if SeeMeCNC plan to clone that extruder, offer it as an option, or clarify the distinction on their site, at least where they're selling nylon filament. I get the impression they're constantly improving stuff, which is great (and refreshing).

[Eaglezsoar]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification! Seems like a simple upgrade.

I wonder if SeeMeCNC plan to clone that extruder, offer it as an option, or clarify the distinction on their site, at least where they're selling nylon filament. I get the impression they're constantly improving stuff, which is great (and refreshing).

SeeMeCNC is constantly improving the printers and kits and they may offer an all metal HotEnd in the future, but I have heard nothing about it in the near future.
It is a simple upgrade just be sure to run the HotEnd PID calibration after installation and make sure that the HotEnd cooling fan is running at all times that the HotEnd is warming up or is hot.

[Mac The Knife]

And also, you will have to change settings in the firmware to be able to run higher temperatures.

[Eaglezsoar]

And also, you will have to change settings in the firmware to be able to run higher temperatures.

Thanks, I had forgotten that.

[teejaydub]

Thanks for the tips! I think I'll go down that path, though I'm realizing I should probably wait till I have the stock machine up and running.

[RegB]

Hmmm, probably as soon as I can get the accuracy thing down...
and maybe the Cura thing,
and a heat spreader, followed by recalibration
and some insulation UNDER the onyx, and (yet another) recalibration
and maybe,,, what else ?? I know there was something else.

Ahh yes, start a LIST of these things and keep it updated, prioritize it too (-:

When can I MAKE something ?

[teejaydub]

Heh. Yep, that's the thing... That Cube had almost no options, basically you got what you got, but what you got was pretty good and I spent very little time on the machine itself, and a lot of time making things!

[Generic Default]

I got a Rostock in early summer 2013, and I have made a lot of mods and upgrades to it. You won't have to deal with any of the problems I had really, since SeeMeCNC has fixed almost all of them. The Orion comes pre-calibrated and ready to print, which is NICE!

I have printed almost exclusively in trimmer line nylon. When I first had the stock hotend, I was limited to 240 degrees, which is not enough to make good nylon parts. They will easily delaminate at 240 degrees since the layers aren't bonded very strong. You can print nylon, but it won't have any of the benefits you expect from it. You need to print it in the 260-280 degree range for indestructible parts. If you use a big nozzle you may be able to print at 240 degrees with decent layer adhesion, but smaller nozzles make much better prints and they need higher temperatures since the plastic stream cools faster.

That means a full metal hotend. If you only need a single hotend, the E3d works pretty well. If you need more than one nozzle for multi material prints or support material, check out the Kraken or the new Tri hotend.

SPOILER ALERT! I might be slightly biased since I'm the one who makes the Tri hotend..... I recommend you check out as many options as possible before buying a hotend so you understand the pros and cons of each.

[teejaydub]

Great information, thanks! And I had picked up about the Kraken, but I hadn't seen your Tri yet. Looks very spiffy. I look forward to learning more about the multi-hotend options.

It sounds like I'm arriving at a pretty sweet time - the delta design is new enough to be a step ahead, but it's also been around long enough now that you guys have taken the burrs off of the "bleeding edge" for me. Thanks!

[RegB]

Well... That tri hot end looks NICE, no doubt about it.

Minor glitch; I ordered an E3D V6 only yesterday, so I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting delivery of THAT (-:
(Anyone know how long it takes Filastrooder to ship it out ?, they said in stock yesterday, today they say out of stock until 7/30 - now THAT makes no sense at all)

Oh, Mannnnn,,,, Three extruders, three colors, three materials, (the thought of) this stuff is UNBEARABLE !!

[teejaydub]

Oh, Mannnnn,,,, Three extruders, three colors, three materials, (the thought of) this stuff is UNBEARABLE !!

Isn't it??

[Generic Default]

The problem with using all three is that the Rambo board that the Rostock Max and Orion come with only supports two extruders. Two is better than one, but there are only a few controller boards on the market that support more than two hotends.

There is always a shortage of stepper motor drivers.....I'm hoping that by pushing the hotend technology harder, the people that make control boards will put more features on them. Five years from now, people will look back and wonder how they survived with only one hotend!


But with two hotends, you eliminate most of your geometry problems since the second nozzle can be used for support material of a different type. Or you can do overmolding, or two colors, or whatever you want really. Buying two separate full metal hotends ends up being more expensive than buying the Tri hotend and you get problems with the alignment and shifting and stuff.

[teejaydub]

Ah, I see - I remembered reading that the Rambo had extra capacity, but apparently not THAT much extra. But I do kind of like your argument for buying three and using two until there's an easy replacement for that board... plus it's much more in keeping with the trilateral symmetry of the machine.

[Generic Default]

I actually never thought of the symmetry before. And I learned a new word today, trilateral! But from the beginning I wanted a compact design with more than enough capacity.

Here's what it looks like on the Rostock Max, along with magnetic ball arms with PTFE cups. In this one I'm only using one of the nozzles since it's a single material print;

Get used to this look as you transition away from from cartesian styles. Your 3d printer can make it's own upgrades for a few dollars!

When you get your Orion, you'll probably get great prints from the start. SeeMeCNC designed excellent machines, and as far as print quality goes for basic parts, they're on par with the 10,000 + dollar Stratasys ones. Unfortunately you won't have a heated build chamber or support material extruder (unless you get another hotend), but the plastic parts will look very similar to the ones printed on the high end machines.

I'm just one of those people who pushes things past their limits. I should stop hijacking your thread now.

Did I ever tell you Welcome?

[teejaydub]

Heh - no problem, digging into the details and possibilities is a great welcome!

That looks really nice and compact, and the magnetic attachment seems very slick. Seems like it would make it easy to fuss with the hot end as well as provide a failsafe if things got out of control - it'll fall off instead of crunching the build plate?

Do you have just one Bowden tube running into it because you're just using one nozzle?

And, does that bracket need to be printed in nylon since it's holding the heat sink, or is PLA sufficient?

[Generic Default]

I print my stuff in trimmer line because it's cheap, strong, and doesn't get soft or melt until it's over 210 degrees C. When the fan is on, the entire heatsink stays cool to the touch. It would probably work with PLA, but without the fan it gets hot enough to soften PLA. ABS would work though. The fan mount is optional for nylon, the circular bracket is a drop in adapter to fit the hotend into the SeeMeCNC effector plate.

If you ever crash your machine from Gcode (running the moving parts out of build volume or into the surface) the magnetic arms pop off harmlessly. With the stock setup it is possible to break stuff, but unlikely because the NEMA 17 steppers only have a couple kilograms of force before they skip steps. The pictures are of only one heater block. I'll constantly testing new designs and nozzles so I switch them out a lot.

Your Orion will have the newer arms. It's good to know you can change your machine at any time to your specifications, but it's unnecessary unless you have unusual print needs.