Trick Laser MAX METAL Build

[critical_limit]

That´s actually my favorite idea for the effector and trucks made of Carbon Fibre.

Just a plain effector for the E3D-V6 without probemount, LED´s and other schnick-schnack (sorry for the german phrase, but have no engl. word, maybe "no nonsense" ?)

More "spacy" than the other one. And standoffs are no longer in conflics with the arms (thanks again, Brian!)

But actually only all theory. If it works - I have no idea!
But as soon as I´m at home and have little time I will mill it and check if it will work on the Max-Metal...

[626Pilot]

schnick-schnack (sorry for the german phrase, but have no engl. word, maybe "no nonsense" ?)

In US English, we would use the term BS.

Brian, I sent you an email a day or two ago. I placed an order for some CF arms early in May, but they apparently never shipped and the order doesn't show up in my history. I was wondering if you could tell me what happened with that. Some of my arms have developed a bit of slop. The rubber bands take care of it, but I'm assuming more plastic will be abraded from the U-joints over time, until they finally fail. (Still not bad for close to 2 years of service!)

Also, I'd like an ETA for when my Metal MAX will ship! Thank you.

[ccavanaugh]

Mr. Cavanaugh,

Would you be able to share the CAD assembly of the max metal frame? Or is that protected? I'd love to be able to mock up some designs of my own onto the assembly.

Cheers.

I will if Brian is okay with it. It's based on my measurements and may not be exact.

[626Pilot]

I got my kit, arms, Trick Trucks, and a bunch of that 8-conductor wire last week. I'm going to go through this whole thread, download some stuff and start printing it.

However, I will probably modify some of it. For example, the endstop switch mounts are supposed to bolt up to two segments of T-slot that join at an angle. I don't trust my existing printer to produce perfect 60.0000- or 120.0000-degree angles, and I don't want to have anything pushing or pulling the frame out of alignment, so I may set it up to only bolt to one T-slot segment.

[Mac The Knife]

I've been slacking off with my build, although it's a little more ambitious. I have to revise my effector plate drawing and remachine it. I have to finish my truck plate drawings, and machine those also. I have to bring the cast aluminum plate into work and have them machine that for me for the bed. I'll be building my own arms out of some old carbon fiber arrow shafts, and for anyone curious, the inserts use an 8-32 thread.

My excuse is that I live in Michigan, and we have only a couple of days of summer to enjoy

[626Pilot]

It would be nice to get some kind of standardized BOM going. Obviously we're intended to start from a Rostock, but say you don't have a Rostock - or that you want to keep it as your fallback printer. (Mantra for production machines: Two is one, one is none.)

I read earlier that we need some #4-40 x 1/2" screws for the snowflake. What screw, locknut, and T-nut sizes, and quantities of each size, do we need for a finished machine (frame + electronics)?

Also, my Rostock is from Dec. '12. Am I right in assuming the older pulleys with the different number of teeth won't fit?

[Aflac]

It would be nice to get some kind of standardized BOM going. Obviously we're intended to start from a Rostock, but say you don't have a Rostock - or that you want to keep it as your fallback printer. (Mantra for production machines: Two is one, one is none.)

I read earlier that we need some #4-40 x 1/2" screws for the snowflake. What screw, locknut, and T-nut sizes, and quantities of each size, do we need for a finished machine (frame + electronics)?

Also, my Rostock is from Dec. '12. Am I right in assuming the older pulleys with the different number of teeth won't fit?

I have started doing pretty much this for my build that I am designing right now....I am sure there are probably some pretty big mistakes in my list but I did make a google doc with every part broken out with sources and prices...not sure if it helps or not

here is my spreadsheet, the left column is pretty much the basic rostock max v2 kit, the right column is everything i have added or upgraded.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is my thread

http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8460" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bvandiepenbos]

MAX METAL Effector Platform, J-Groove Mount and Carriage Arm Mounts, final version up on web site...
http://www.tricklaser.com/MAX-METAL-Pla ... L-PLAT.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tincho85]

That effector set looks amazing Brian.

[forrie]

MAX METAL Effector Platform, J-Groove Mount and Carriage Arm Mounts, final version up on web site...
http://www.tricklaser.com/MAX-METAL-Pla ... L-PLAT.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trick Laser Aluminum Rostock MAX platform-02s.jpg

OMG I need this! When will they be in Stock?

[plasma]

Brian,
Amazing job as usual. I just ordered, when is the ETA for shipping?

[Thinker]

Brian - Your work never ceases to impress... I just placed my order.

[forrie]

However, I will probably modify some of it. For example, the endstop switch mounts are supposed to bolt up to two segments of T-slot that join at an angle. I don't trust my existing printer to produce perfect 60.0000- or 120.0000-degree angles, and I don't want to have anything pushing or pulling the frame out of alignment, so I may set it up to only bolt to one T-slot segment.

I still haven't gotten around to building my MAX METAL yet, but I was playing around with the openbuilds micro limit switch plate...seems like it will align right and work just fine. If you use a spacer you should be able to mount it on the tower also.
http://openbuildspartstore.com/micro-limit-switch-plate

[img]http://i.imgur.com/doHdrQb.jpg[/img]

[stonewater]

Brian,

can I just order a printer from you for god's sake man we all know we want one!! add some pulleys and steppers an all we need is a Rambo or smoothie and an extruder... I am being serious.

Tom C

[bvandiepenbos]

Hey all, thanks for your kinds words and support.
I have a small batch of aluminum platform sets in hand from my local waterjet guy that I am in the process of doing the CNC work, drilling, tapping, finishing, packing, etc.
My goal is to start shipping out the platform kits by end of next week.

[626Pilot]

Brian, have you thought about doing magnetic arms? I've noticed that the Traxxas joints develop slop over time. I've put some of that silicon lubricant onto my new set of arms to see if that will extend the life, but don't know how long that will work.

[bvandiepenbos]

Brian, have you thought about doing magnetic arms? I've noticed that the Traxxas joints develop slop over time. I've put some of that silicon lubricant onto my new set of arms to see if that will extend the life, but don't know how long that will work.

Are you using our "ZERO LASH" bands? they take out any play in the Traxxas joints by drawing arms against spherical joints.
Have noticed them getting loose over time? I have not seen them waer.

Yes, I have considered offering mag-ball arms... it's on the to do list.
I built a set for one of my machines over a year ago. They work fine, but what I don't like is how they can pop apart if head catches on print or fast direction changes. I did not feel comfortable leaving it run unattended for long prints.
I am thinking of several options. Complete new arm sets and/or "conversion" end sets that would replace Traxxas ends of our CF arms for existing owners.
Most recently I have been playing around with ball joints and sockets held together with springs, I think that could be the best option yet. Inspired by others, not my original idea.

Are you sure the lubricant you used is not attacking the plastic?
I have always ran mine dry without issues.

[626Pilot]

Here is the history of the arms I speak of.

I got them from you in summer '13. They were used from then until last week, with the exception of several months in the middle where I used the v2 SeeMe arms. (They gave me delta arm blues, so I went back to the TL arms. So sad.)

Early this year, I mounted an EZStruder to the X tower's arms using this. In May, I mounted an EZStruder to the Y tower's arms using the same parts. The Z tower has never had any such parts mounted. The effector has an E3D, LED ring, and three fan ducts - not too unusual, or unduly heavy.

If you push outwards against the joints, either at the carriages or the effector, you can push them enough to overcome the rubber bands, and that will tell you how much slop there potentially is, as the rubber bands can't compensate for everything. I found moderate slop on all three towers, even though Z had never had an EZStruder mounted to its arms. In fact, Z had about the same slop as X, which had the extruder mounted for the longest amount of time. The wear is probably not perfectly even on the inside of the plastic part, so it may raise in one place and sag in another, and it may contribute to twisting the effector out of tram as well.

My guess is that the plastic in the U-joints gets abraded, molecule by molecule, by the metal, so that after you use them for awhile you get slop. I've added the silicon lubricant to the new set of arms I got in an attempt to extend their lifespan - never did use it on the old arms. I'm assuming the spring-loaded U-joints you speak of have some mechanism to press segments of the outside part of the joint inward, so they'll always press with the same force even after their surfaces are worn from use. Is there any design like that that's out there now, that isn't ridiculously expensive?

[bvandiepenbos]

@626Pilot

Thanks for your detailed history info. I appreciate your feedback.
Keep in mind that the joints are spherical, so any wear would be even and not change center-to-center length of arm pivots.
The rubber lash straps pull against the spherical joints taking out any play. again, the center length does not change... which is what is the most important.
Honestly I do not think the play you can see by pulling sideways on joint has much, if any, effect on performance of arms.
That is the beauty of the spherical joints vs. the u-joint style of the OEM arms.
I doubt when printing the forces overcome the rubber bands.


What I have been working on is something like the ball+cup-springs joint like the Firepick delta, others on deltabot forum, Shane Graber from the Makerhive, and some high end commercial pick-n-place machines.
I need to find a good source for balls with M3 stud. I built prototypes of a simplified arm that uses only the CF tube without any separate rod ends. It works pretty well.
Still, I am not convinced this will be a great advantage over the Traxxas joints, but something to explore anyway.
The Traxxas 5347 are quite good for the price, I have sourced many and nothing comes close to the performance and value.

[626Pilot]

I have learned a few things about assembling this machine.

• I think at the end of the day, there are about 1/5th as many steps involved as for the original Rostock MAX, and you get a better-aligned frame. SeeMeCNC should be paying Brian to use his design. It's better than theirs in many ways.
• It's a good idea to fish the 8-conductor wire through the upright rails before bolting in the horizontals. It is a very tight fit. I found that sometimes I had to feed it through with both hands at the same time. Other times, I had to remove it and feed it through the other side because it wouldn't go through otherwise. I preferred to feed it through from the bottom, because the top opening is close enough to the end of the rail that you can stick an Allen wrench in the end to push the wires out through the opening.
• T-slot nuts have to be installed with the flanged side inward. (Previously I suggested outward, as the flange helps keep it aligned when you're fastening the bolt. Better to get roll-in T-slot nuts with ball springs - they align themselves.)
• Install all the T-slot nuts you think you might need before bolting up the towers and horizontal rails. You can't put more in after the fact. I'm leaving one extra on the top row of each horizontal rail to accommodate filament spools, which I will design later.
• The idlers on the tops of the towers perfectly fit GT2 belt from Amazon without a washer between them. Tightening the assembly will take out any slack.
• The printable idler spacers are too fat for my idlers, but the washers included with the kit work fine.
• Assemble the idlers before installing them to the tower tops.
• After fitting (but not yet bolting in) a horizontal rail, see whether light is visible between the alignment pin and the bottom of the rail. There should be no gap. If there is, use your palm to gently "hammer" the rail down towards the pin until there is no gap. A light source or brightly daylit window is the best way to check. If your palm isn't enough, maybe try a small rubber mallet (the kind that's hammer-sized). Be really careful - the alignment pins may be metal, but they're narrow and will bend very easily.
• The Rostock MAX v1's M3 screws, at least the ones used to mount the steppers, are not long enough to pass through the frame and engage the stepper motors. I think a 20mm screw would work, or perhaps 22, with 24 being the longest likely to work. I have M3x18, M3x20, M3x22, and M3x24 somewhere.
• You can get 0.9-degree steppers with 58 oz-in. holding torque for $22 each at Amazon. Haven't wired mine up yet. There is a slight reduction in holding torque, but you have to apply so much force to overcome that - in the vicinity of the weight of an entire printer.
• The Trick Trucks can be installed to the rails even after the top and bottom horizontal rails are bolted in place - just loosen the eccentric cam, and you can fit them directly to the T-slot.
• The old 15 or whatever tooth pulleys from the Rostock MAX v1 won't fit - this printer requires SeeMe's new pulleys. (The pulley itself fits, but the huge fastening screws that stick out the side do not. I don't know whether it's wide enough for the belt to line up properly with the insides of the T-slot, either.) If you already have what they sell in the store, with the grub screw fasteners, you're good.

I have a question about the Trick Trucks. What kinds of screws, washers, locknuts, etc. would be good for this? I tried using the usual #6-32 screws with washers, but the screw holes are so big that the screws have a lot of freedom to move around. I want to tighten them down real good, but because of the hole diameter, the washers can be bent by this.

Happy 4th!

[Mac The Knife]

For T-Slot nuts, I ordered these ones that allow you to add or remove them with the frame bolted together.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191224017522

[bvandiepenbos]

I send (6) M3 x 20 screws with the frame for mounting motors.

I hate to say it, but you really should not put the t-nuts in with flange around thread facing out. They are designed to face in. If you put them in backwards they will not clamp in slot properly.

If you need to add t-nuts after assembly, they make some that will "roll in" from the side.
https://youtu.be/nK-DsJxAdwM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You should use the bolts, spacers, eccentrics, and precision washers from openbuilds.
The screws are M5 x 30
I have a link on Trick Trucks product page listing what hardware to buy along with the v-wheels.
http://www.tricklaser.com/Trick-Trucks- ... TRUCKS.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tricks Trucks will NOT work with the stock SeeMeCNC wheels, bearings or spacers. (as it says on product page)

[forrie]

You can get 0.9-degree steppers with 58 oz-in. holding torque for $22 each at Amazon. Haven't wired mine up yet, but if I'm not mistaken, the stock 1.8-degree Kysan motors have something like 54 oz-in. Not bad, for twice the resolution.

What do you have to change around in the firmware to get those going? I'm guessing current to match the motor spec. What about steps_per_mm ? Anything else?

Does it make much difference to print quality and can the smoothie keep up with the extra calculations?

[Earthbound]

Steps per mm will need to be doubled.

This motor is another option. More torque (68oz) and $17 each. The downside is that they have round shafts. You'll need to grind your own flat spot.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10846

[forrie]

Steps per mm will need to be doubled.

This motor is another option. More torque (68oz) and $17 each. The downside is that they have round shafts. You'll need to grind your own flat spot.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10846

Arrh I see Earthbound. So for the 0.9 degree steppers, SeeMeCNC 20 Tooth timing pulley, GT2 Belt (2mm pitch) and a Smoothieboard step_per_mm need's to be 160?

Also I think it's the same model as the one above (maybe??). hmmmm torque is either 48 N.cm or 68 oz.in, that Amazon page says 48N.cm & 58 oz.in.

626Pilot - What part number is on the motors you got from Amazon. 42BYGHM809 or JK42HM48-1684 because when you look at the pics then read the comments and the description on that Amazon page it gets real confusing!