3D printers: gateway drug?

[Captain Starfish]

The whole 3D printer thing seduced me with its easy setup, and "grab the cad and hit print" promises. Of course it hasn't quite been that simple but it's been intriguing, frustrating and rewarding. Learning limits and parallels to subtractive machining, after a couple of years I wasn't getting the rush anymore and decided to level up my addiction.

So I bought a four axis CNC router.

I've seen other printer owners do the same and I'm starting to see a pattern. I'm now comfortable with my oracular visions of a forklift bringing a Haas VMC down the driveway one day with my wife asking "idiot, what do you need that for?" and I'm equally comfortable with the response I prepared earlier (ie now), namely "F***ked if I know my dear, but I do need it. desperately."

Anyone else perched on the brink of this slippery, slippery slope of must-have fettling capability expansion?

Tell us a story...

[Eaglezsoar]

I don't have a story to tell but I will be watching this topic!
It sounds like it could get very interesting.

[DavidF]

Similar story here. Had really been wanting a cnc mill but th budget didnt allow for it at the time. Saw video on Y/T about lost pla casting (3dtopo) and decided it was something I wanted to try as I already had been casting metal for some years. Found a locale printer on 3d hubs and asked for some scraps to try out. Watched hi printer in action and decided I wanted one as a precursor to a cnc mill. I figured it would help me learn a bit more about it. I cant say that buying the 3d printer help me very much when it came to the cnc mill, but it sure was and still is fun. Been trying to serch out all the 3d printed gun files to archive even though they seem to be frowned upon in the 3d printing community. So if anyone has the Imura revolver plans I would like a set

[teoman]

Some people have the goal of accumulating money and financial assets in life. That makes them happy and makes them feel powerful.

Some others take great pleasure and satisfaction in accumulating abilities to create. That makes them feel empowered to change their surroundings and life without dependency on others. This type of person will drool over new toys/tool, and with every toy you live another dream of all of the awesome stuff you can make. You will also end up collecting junk because you can see the potential value in it for modifying purposes or just as raw materials.

And yes %99 of females will never understand what you are doing. I think we should open another section on the forum on how to impress the significant other with our new toys. I think that everyone should print a set of those shoes (preferably in various colors) to legitimize their hobby with the significant other.

[Xenocrates]

I got into it somewhat the other way around. I have access to CNC mills and lathes through school, and more access to lathes through my uncle (his are somewhat more specialized though, as they largely just do ballscrews). Having seen what I could do with those tools, I decided that with the space I had available, and the current power budget in my barn and workshop, a printer was the best choice. After all, it's not like I have a three phase run out to the barn. There is space in the conduit though, for another couple runs of quad-ought. So there is hope for the future. But first, I need a carton of Cat 5 or so, so I can get the network over to the barn.

[Windshadow]

I was a hobby home machinist dating from the early 70s when my great uncle (columbia engineering masters degree 1900) died and left me his 12x36 Atlas Clausing back geared screw cutting lathe and delta floor model drill res and a atlas horizontal table top milling machine all dating from the 1940s to early 1950s and all with lots and lots of tooling. I am still using a lot of it today. aside from sessions learning the basics of machine tool use from him on visits in the early 60s I was self taught and made a lot of use of things reprinted by Lindsay publishing of stuff first printed in the 19th and to the middle of the 20th century as well as the machinists bedside reader books compiled by guy lautard. I was one of the founder of the CompuServe discussion area for home shop machining in the mid 80s (i was 83405,72 on CompuServe and TCD457 on the Source in the late 70s). for a long time making Model steam engines (stationary or marine plants I never got in two making model locomotives)

So I too came at 3d printing via machine tools though I never transitioned them to CNC in fact I am embarised to say i was a bit snooty about manual use of them to the CNC folks back then. one of the lessons that my great uncle taught me was with nothing but a cold chisel a chunk of scrap cast (no hard spots that god) iron and files was to make a 1 inch cube all square and correct. I was 16 and it took me quite a while but on my next visit to hime at his retirement home in Clearwater Fl. he passed it (he was generous it was about 1/32" undersized, the piece of scrap iron he gave me to work on was enough for about 5 attempts and the first 4 got too small rather quickly ) it was a very valuable lesson in basic metal working and it taught the virtues of fettling which been invaluable in my hobby of restoring 19th century weapons and and mechanical antiques)

getting into 3d printing though has kindled an interest in CNC machining after all these years to the extent that when i see a CnC router able to do brass and Al mentioned here i go off and read about it. I can't really justify it in unless it does steel and iron and the like as space in my shop is limited... before I move something into it I will have to move my heat treating oven and the 7" shaper out to the barn. The fact is that i doc almost entirely one off things and for early guns that date before Whitworth codified threading the screws in them tend to be non standard though some makers like Eli Whitney did have their own standard thread forms for their own products. I just restored an Orrery for a local retired astronomer and the threaded fasteners of it I had to cut free hand much like a woodworker uses a lathe.

Xeno, my machine tools all have 3 phase motors and I run them through frequency converters to both generate the 3 phase power and for speed control in general when you use frequency controls for this you derate them by about 40 to 50% so a converter that is running off of a true 220 3 phase input that is rated for a 3 hp motor will drive 1 3/4 hp if it is being fed 220 single phase power they are a far better solution than the old phase magic units and the home made rotary converters I used in the 70s and 80s when the price of something like a Mitsubishi Frequrel at last got down to merely painful levels in the 90s I was quick to move to them.
(in general 3 phase power is best for machine tool quills as it does not create the pulse problem that 60 cycle (or 50 cps) single phase can cause)

[bot]

I'm totally the same way. Although, my gf is supportive. In fact, it's her that is blazing the trail in getting s resin printer. We're going to stay with additive a bit more so we can grow into making metal chips.

[Eaglezsoar]

I was a hobby home machinist dating from the early 70s when my great uncle (columbia engineering masters degree 1900) died and left me his 12x36 Atlas Clausing back geared screw cutting lathe and delta floor model drill res and a atlas horizontal table top milling machine all dating from the 1940s to early 1950s and all with lots and lots of tooling. I am still using a lot of it today. aside from sessions learning the basics of machine tool use from him on visits in the early 60s I was self taught and made a lot of use of things reprinted by Lindsay publishing of stuff first printed in the 19th and to the middle of the 20th century as well as the machinists bedside reader books compiled by guy lautard. I was one of the founder of the CompuServe discussion area for home shop machining in the mid 80s (i was 83405,72 on CompuServe and TCD457 on the Source in the late 70s). for a long time making Model steam engines (stationary or marine plants I never got in two making model locomotives)

So I too came at 3d printing via machine tools though I never transitioned them to CNC in fact I am embarised to say i was a bit snooty about manual use of them to the CNC folks back then. one of the lessons that my great uncle taught me was with nothing but a cold chisel a chunk of scrap cast (no hard spots that god) iron and files was to make a 1 inch cube all square and correct. I was 16 and it took me quite a while but on my next visit to hime at his retirement home in Clearwater Fl. he passed it (he was generous it was about 1/32" undersized, the piece of scrap iron he gave me to work on was enough for about 5 attempts and the first 4 got too small rather quickly ) it was a very valuable lesson in basic metal working and it taught the virtues of fettling which been invaluable in my hobby of restoring 19th century weapons and and mechanical antiques)

getting into 3d printing though has kindled an interest in CNC machining after all these years to the extent that when i see a CnC router able to do brass and Al mentioned here i go off and read about it. I can't really justify it in unless it does steel and iron and the like as space in my shop is limited... before I move something into it I will have to move my heat treating oven and the 7" shaper out to the barn. The fact is that i doc almost entirely one off things and for early guns that date before Whitworth codified threading the screws in them tend to be non standard though some makers like Eli Whitney did have their own standard thread forms for their own products. I just restored an Orrery for a local retired astronomer and the threaded fasteners of it I had to cut free hand much like a woodworker uses a lathe.

Xeno, my machine tools all have 3 phase motors and I run them through frequency converters to both generate the 3 phase power and for speed control in general when you use frequency controls for this you derate them by about 40 to 50% so a converter that is running off of a true 220 3 phase input that is rated for a 3 hp motor will drive 1 3/4 hp if it is being fed 220 single phase power they are a far better solution than the old phase magic units and the home made rotary converters I used in the 70s and 80s when the price of something like a Mitsubishi Frequrel at last got down to merely painful levels in the 90s I was quick to move to them.
(in general 3 phase power is best for machine tool quills as it does not create the pulse problem that 60 cycle (or 50 cps) single phase can cause)

Those old machines were built like tanks and I would love to see pictures of them but only if you have the time.
The old shop smith saws are still around because of their heavy duty construction and I love use tools from the 40's, the 50's and the 60's.

[Windshadow]

I am going to cheat a bit on these photos and just use links to my Email friend Tony's old machines web site as he has old catalog photos of almost everything right to hand If you like old machine tools (and not just lathes despite the URL) his is the best web site in the world and I recommend it highly ( here is an example of the odd ball sort of machine he also has full details on http://www.lathes.co.uk/pratt-whitney-p ... -machines/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is my swiss Schaublin 102 (4") toolmakers collet lathe full details on the range are found here http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin/page10.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I traded in my atlas table top horizontal mill for a 1950 vintage round ram Bridgeport J head
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin/img67.gif[/img]
with the variable frequency drive I have solid speed control from 10 rpm to 7,000 rpm speeds above that to 11,000 are limited to not more than 90 sec at a time and max of 5 min spaced out over an hour.... the extreme high quality headstock bearings would have been over $800 to replace 15 years ago god knows what they would cost today. I have full set of both inch and metric w-20 collets as well as pot collets and hex and square collets as well as face plates and between centre working I have the high accuracy vernier tailstock as well for precise drilling. I look forward to doing some nozzle experimenting with this lathe. I got it from the Bulova watch company in Conn. it was used in their tool room

This is the Atlas 12X36" that is my 'heavy ' lathe while working to 0.001" tolerance in it is not hard tighter than that is much harder than working to = -.00001 on the Schaublin but i is also fully tooled with tool post grinder many chucks and face plates including some i got as rough castings and machined myself as with the above here are full details http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/img38.gif[/img]
This was my great uncles Atlas horizontal mill that I sold when I got the Bridgeport Atlas also sold their machines through Sears in the 50s and 60s under the craftsman branding they were exactly the same machines http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasmiller/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlasmiller/img0.jpg[/img]

this is my exact version of Bridgeport, Pancake motor J head round ram and the short 32" table It came from the Hamilton Standard Propeller works are Hartford Conn. and was bought new by them in 1952 http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/page7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/img99.gif[/img]

this is the 7" shaper Mine is the AMMCO version and has a metal lable apologizing for the War production level of finish it used a black wrinkle paint rather than the normal several coats of enamel paint http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/ammco/img0.jpg[/img]

[geneb]

oh god.


WANT.

g.

[Windshadow]

oh god.


WANT.

g.

I know how you feel a good friend restored one of these to better than new (the huge vacuum tubes in the speed controls were the tricky part but he is a EE
http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/page2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Yo have to read this link if you love fine old tools the work he does on it is beyond belief and some of the later color photos are of his machine before he totally rebuilt it
[img]http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/img3.gif[/img]

[Eaglezsoar]

Thanks for the pictures of the workhorse machines, many are still in service and are built better than most available today.

[teoman]

Oh yeah, that old stuff is fantastic. They were built to last.

But I suppose the mentality in society has changed aswell. Use it for a bit and then throw it in the trash.

[barry99705]

Heh, I'm printing a desktop cnc router.
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bxTF ... 220605.jpg[/img]

[Windshadow]

Which desktop CNC router Barry? those look to be nice chunky prints

[Eaglezsoar]

I am excited about seeing the cnc router completed. Just seeing the parts makes me want one.

[barry99705]

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's going to be a long term project. It says about 131 hours of printing time, not counting screw ups. I had thrown some abs in the printer to print out my tablet mount for the printer, and tried printing a couple parts, for some reason it didn't like that.
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ng4H ... 183322.jpg[/img]

So I put the pla back on and it printed the same set of parts twice with no issues! I printed out a 120mm to 80mm fan adapter last night for the enclosure to cool the electronics better and also had no issues. Once I need to print something in abs again, I'll troubleshoot the problem. I tried twice and failed on the same part, so looks like my leveling is slightly out, but not 100% sure. The fan I printed last night had to be on tape as well, not enough contact for just glue stick. I'll have the hardware part done way before I scrounge up the funds for the electronics part.

[Krinje]

If 3D printing is a gateway drug, I started with the hard stuff. I was going to school for a degree in machining when I was exposed to RepRap by my drafting/CAD teacher. The bug stuck with me until I finally found a really nice job and after much research a rostock v2 was my second large purchase.

I love my Hurco at work, I love my 2.5axis, I love cutting, but damn it can still sit and watch a print for an hour without noticing the time. I only wish I had more time, I print faster than I can whip up designs.

[Windshadow]

My name is Windy and it has been 6 weeks since I turned on a machine in my metal shop.... one day at a time the 3d printer keeps me from going back to the hard stuff

[Generic Default]

I started out more with manual and CNC machines (cheaper Taiwanese ones), then got into 3d printing, and now I'm into both. I think 3d printers are great for complex plastic parts that would be impossible or not economical to do on CNCs, but I don't think 3d printers will replace CNCs in the near future. Subtractive just has so many advantages, keep in mind that lathes and mills made 100 years ago could turn and mill parts with better tolerances and surface finishes than the best 3d printers can do today.

And I see some serious limits in 3d printers, even the best metal sintering laser printers make parts that look like they were sand cast.

Which is why I'm doing that Mill/Turn center in another thread. I need the capabilities of a CNC machine for what I do, and 3d printing just can't compete yet.

[DavidF]

My name is Windy and it has been 6 weeks since I turned on a machine in my metal shop.... one day at a time the 3d printer keeps me from going back to the hard stuff

Windy??? Hydroplanes??

[Krinje]

Hi Windy.

My name is Krinje and I'm an addict, yesterday I took a cut of 6061 strait from the rack, I need help.

To be fair to 3d printing, its behind nearly 200 (with some debate; 1818) years of machine technology. Both are still exploding technically. Not many years ago you would never even dream of 100ipm as a feed rate for machining. tools, coatings, hardware, software, materials. In the span of things it wasn't really that long ago the ubiquitous 'KURT' vice was added as an irreplaceable feature on a table. (shucks, I missed out on rotary tables, oh well )

With that in mind, 3d printing is in its infancy (1980's), if you compare timelines it hasn't even reached the 'bridgeport' phase of development (that was 1938, 120 years down the road). Technology obviously doesn't advance linearly but I think you guys get the picture I'm trying to draw here.

[Captain Starfish]

I've had manual gear (mill, lathe, drill press, grinders, linisher etc) for 15 years or so in the shed. All cheap chinese crap, work happily with steel etc if you're comfortable with tolerances around a millimetre. And trying to cut round profiles with an X and Y handwheel? Yeah, I never got that good. I did a CNC retrofit to the mill using printer steppers and a custom driver/controller board years ago but the steppers just lacked the guts to feed anything but engraving work.

So they sat there for the occasional simple job. They're still there, and somewhere on the list of projects is to pull apart the SIEG X2 mill and get rid of the wobbles and bumps in the ways etc.

The printer I found pretty captivating, and it was definitely the printer - for me - that opened the door to going CNC. I know the little Chinese 4 axis I have now is only the next step, not the end of the road. And sadly it's not about the things I can get out of it, more about the getting of those things. It'll never be a financially sensible road for me: but I don't care.

And it's amazing how much stuff now piles up in the "stock/scrap" area at the side of the house which would have once ended up going to the tip. And the smug sense of satisfaction when I can point to a bit of it that's been sitting there for months/years and say "See, dear? It DID come in handy one day!"

[Windshadow]

My name is Windy and it has been 6 weeks since I turned on a machine in my metal shop.... one day at a time the 3d printer keeps me from going back to the hard stuff

Windy??? Hydroplanes??

Nope it is derived from a term from sailboat racing, the windshadow is where you want to put your opponent to take his wind and pass him it is used in coastal day racing mostly. and of course in one design racing.
from 1964 to to 1994 i never missed the annual sailboat race from new england to Bermuda. for the last 20 years as Navigator for lots of different folks as I did celestial navigation own this days before the GPS. and odd year race from Marion Mass to Bernuda did not allow electronic navigation in any case.

the short form of Windy was a nickname I picked up for my skill at using the radio offshore forecasts to find the best winds for the races

[Generic Default]

I think one of the common themes for the people on these types of forums is that we like making stuff, and are fascinated with the ability to make new things. Making new things has always been at the heart of technology and progression.

I don't mean to derail the topic, but I think people in my age group/generation have little to no interest in making things. People who were born in the US after industry declined were never exposed to the concept of how to make things; it isn't emphasized in schools, it employs only a small percentage of the population, and the fabrication knowledge base that is common in people who are older now is pretty much nonexistent in young people today. If you ask people who are ~20 years old if they know a lathe is, 60% will have no idea, 35% will say "I think its that metal thing in my Granddad's garage," and the remaining 5% will actually be familiar with them. Not to imply it's their fault, they were never exposed to this kind of stuff and had no reason to be. I believe it's devolved with consumerism to the point where people don't feel the need to create anything new since they think they can go to Walmart or Amazon to buy anything; the spam of products has decreased interest in wanting to creating new things (in my *expert opinion).


Very recently (2012 onward) there has been a shift in the US education system toward STEM fields, which are the modern gateways into manufacturing technology. Most schools now have 3d printers. Who knows what will come out of it; I cannot comprehend how kids will transform a 3d printer with their imagination, but I hope that they are inspired and compelled by watching printers print to make the next big thing. So in that way, I sincerely hope that 3d printers are a gateway drug to kids to get interested in technology. Gotta get em hooked on yo crack, so to speak. The last few years have seen an upswing in public interest in manufacturing, and I hope it stays that way.

Still pretty pessimistic about people in my age group though. It's hard to stay hopeful for them after witnessing their lifestyles in person. What do the older people on this forum think of this subject?