Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarter.

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Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarter.

Post by 626Pilot »

This is about the Phoenix 3D printer that was successfully launched on Kickstarter, but failed to come to fruition. I see some patterns in their postmortem that are pretty interesting. For the most part, I'd have to say that a combination of impatience and lack of planning were the culprits.

It's very difficult to know how to plan for a project on this scale when you've never done it before. The problem of "unknown unknowns" makes it awfully haphazard to proceed without adequate experience, and I'm guessing the creators of the Phoenix3D are another group of people Fresh Outta College! with a degree and a dream. I don't mean to bash them, but rather to figure out a few of the high-level mistakes they made, and hopefully to extract some actionable advice from their experience.

This is what happens to a lot of startups, and sadly, Phoenix3D was no exception:

[img]http://forum.seemecnc.com/download/file ... &mode=view[/img]
We started designing 3D printers in response to the designs and printers we had originally purchased. None of them worked the way we liked. So, we set out to design a new printer.
Bad idea: Trying to build your own super complicated thing before you've figured out how to fix someone else's (broken/inadequate/etc.) super complicated thing. Even if it's broken or inadequate, there's probably a lot of aspects to it that aren't broken or inadequate. Building a 3D printer from scratch requires a much bigger skillset than simply putting together and improving someone else's. Better to learn on an existing design, and benefit from the majority of stuff they did right, than to have to go through making all the same mistakes yourself. It makes the learning curve much steeper, and can encourage corner-cutting and abandonment of features (if not the whole project).

After you're good at fixing someone else's designs, maybe it's time to do your own design.
So, we ran the Kickstarter. [...] We didn’t think it would take off like it did, going on to pre-sell nearly $110,000 of product. [...] This also allowed us some time to firm up who we wanted to buy inventory from.
Another bad idea: They had no idea who they were going to buy the parts from, what they'd cost, whether they'd get bad samples and have to choose different vendors, etc. - and they started selling anyway, assuming that they would just figure out everything on the fly. This is OK when you're building a bespoke printer for yourself, or your friend who isn't going to come after you if you miss a deadline. It's not okay when you're selling them to dispassionate 3rd parties who just want a printer, and have no legitimate reason to care about you or your problems, having plenty of their own to solve, among them not getting a 3D printer they paid for. One might assume that they didn't mock up a production line or do anything else to figure out how to run it, what it would cost to furnish, supply, operate, upgrade and repair it, etc. All those units were sold before a method of producing them existed. Not a good move!
Flash forward three weeks later, we start buying inventory. Over 80% of the money we received was used on inventory.
Fixed, variable & sunk costs for the plant? Sales tax? The production line? The wages? Administrative and ancillary stuff like filing taxes, running a website, hiring legal counsel, etc.? The thousand-and-one grafts that federal, state, county, and municipal governments bleed business owners dry with? ...Profit? I don't see much room for these things if 80%+ was spent on materials alone. A business can easily sink 10% of its money on legal stuff, especially early on when the corporate structure, contracts, IP research, etc. are going on.
As we started building our “fleet” of printers to print out additional parts, [...] Unfortunately, injection molding the parts was out of the question – we didn’t have the money, expertise, or the money to hire the expertise to make this happen.
They were going to use a bunch of 3D printers to 3D print parts for other 3D printers. It would have been far better to have the parts printed to a high dimensional accuracy by Shapeways (or just get a DLP?) and then use those to make forms for injection molding. If they didn't have the dough for that, it would have been better to hold off on the launch until it was figured out. As it is, they figured all this stuff out after they had already sold units, at which point it was too late. They painted themselves into a corner.
For the longest time, things were always looking “okay.” Things always looked like they were just about to improve significantly.
...Oh?
Gunshow Comic - Everything is fine.png
As anyone who has dated can tell you, it's very, very easy to think that things are going your way when they aren't. Being self-critical enough to figure out when your estimate of the situation is off is a highly valuable life skill, one which unfortunately isn't taught in school. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they all made it through college without learning anything whatsoever about their own psychology. This is one of the reasons why I think school (kindergarten through post-doc) needs a serious overhaul. People are sent out into the workforce with an education designed in 1850 to stuff people in loathsome cubicle jobs where someone else would do all the thinking for them. Entrepreneurs either think for themselves or wind up on fire, and an educational system that does nothing to give them a concrete education in these skills is likely to cause more fire than success. These students aren't taught how to manage their own minds, and then they go out in the world and screw up massively, and have no idea how they were supposed to know any of this ahead of time.
Back to the topic of time: we knew that the three of us could not do it alone, it would take too long to finish the Kickstarter printers, and we would run out of money for basic living expenses. The instinct here was to hire people, because that’s what growing companies do – they hire people!
After 80%+ of the money was already spent on materials, it became apparent that they needed to hire more people. Yikes!
This proved to be challenging. We found some talent in our rural community, but they were, unfortunately, not helping to expedite the processes. Of course, these were employees – which meant that we were now starting to put money into payroll. This led to the first round of layoffs, and our move into Fort Collins, to be closer to a more diverse workforce where, hopefully, we could find people with actual experience in assembly or manufacturing.
I bet all kinds of misery went on regarding that. I know what it's like to work with unmotivated people who never carry their weight. They ruin everything. So now, in addition to blowing 80%+ of their money on materials, they had to not only hire and fire some series of employees, but also move their facility to another city. Adequate simulation and planning beforehand, with a willingness to abort the project if it couldn't be satisfactorily worked out ahead of time, would have allowed them to avoid so much grief.
This process of laying people off and hiring new ones repeated a few times. We went through three or four large groups of employees trying to find the right mix of talent. As deposits came in for new orders, we were able to open a line of credit to start buying more inventory.
There wasn't much else they could do at this point, but this passage highlights something important. They could not, and did not, stop taking orders. Their backs were up against the wall. They kept having to dig themselves in deeper and deeper, making more and more promises that they would eventually fail to deliver on. This is just one link in a terrible chain of events. The first link in that chain? Lack of patience, planning, and a willingness to either delay or abort.
We fought and fought molds. Jerry spent countless hours creating new molds trying to replenish them as they died. We eventually came up with a template technique to make that process faster, but it didn’t work for all the molds. [...] ...despite the massive amount of money we had to spent to keep re-creating molds (all in, I’m guessing we spent well over $10,000 on silicone).
I wonder if, at that point, they still thought they "didn't have enough money" to hire someone to convert their operation to use injection molding. How much did they spend building and assembling a fleet of 3D printers to knock out the parts at an agonizingly slow pace? Can't you get an injection molding machine for like $5K on eBay? This sounds like a decision that was made hurriedly, without research, on the assumption that what they knew (3D printing) was "good enough."
But, obviously, word got out that deliveries were a problem, and that delivering was slow. My favorite comments were the ones calling us “horrible people.”
When you promise someone something, and then you don't deliver on it after you took $1,500.00 from them, they're supposed to get mad. If someone calls you a horrible person when you rip them off for fifteen hundred bucks, rather than suing you or trying to beat you up, consider yourself lucky. A person who has been swindled (whether the swindle was voluntary, or simply due to really bad planning) has a right to vent about it. You should expect that. Taking that venting personally (when your actions are what provoked it in the first place) and writing a passive-aggressive comment about it on what's supposed to be a letter of apology, is just not reasonable.
Over $100,000 went to payroll, over $100,000 went to inventory, and at least $25,000 went to rents, utilities, and more.
Remember when they spent 80%+ of their money on material? Going by this, they were spending about the same on payroll as material. Then, another 25% on top of that to rent and operate their facility. They didn't see this coming because they didn't have a good plan.

In summary, entrepreneurs need to spend as much time planning ahead as is necessary, and they need to be willing to either wait on, or abort the project, until they have a clear path ahead. They should have got firm estimates from suppliers and B2B manufacturers before they went public, let alone started taking peoples' money. They should have mocked up a production line, done walkthroughs to calculate how long it would take to assemble things, etc. They should have gone the injection molding route rather than fooling around with a fleet of 3D printers and high-maintenance resin casting. And, I don't know this for sure, but it sounds like they probably got a bunch of computer science majors and nobody with a business background. (Maybe they had a business major, dunno.) It seems to me that they should have got more experience in the industry, before trying to become a part of it in a single step.

I don't blame them for not knowing what they didn't know, but hopefully others will look at their experience and figure out how to avoid repeating it.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by Nylocke »

A couple people from my local Makerspace backed their project and got burned from it. After hearing about it from them I looked up the kickstarter and read every update they posted from the beginning right up to the final one regarding their decision to stop lying to themselves.

From what I read they weren't actually trying to 3D print all their printers, they were trying to do some hobby level casting, thats why all their moulds failed after 2-5 casts. Not saying that its really any better than 3D printing all the parts (in fact its worse (Lulzbot used to print all their TAZ parts for all their printers and it "worked")), and they really should have done their research and looked into injection molding. Its really cheap (in the long run) and super easy in comparison to making dozens upon dozens of hobby grade moulds.

When they did finally get to shipping the preorders from the campaign, many of them arrived with broken parts due to inadequate packaging, which lead to them redoing their packaging, and delaying everything even more.

Their first employees... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ez ... 866&page=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its disappointing to see 2 things that came out in the Pheonix3D, first being the fact that 280 people spent $110,000 in all on a kickstarter project based solely on the video/kickstarter page. They likely didn't do a whole bunch of research on the people running the project, not like most people would, but to me that seems like an important thing to do before spending $400 on a brand new untested piece of equipment.

The other thing is the whole thing with the designers lack of care to even try to research other methods of mass manufacturing the plastic parts on their printer. Who would even consider casting a viable means of mass production when you're a company of 3 people? Why wouldn't you do some simple research into learning about injection moulding? If you think your product is all that (which they seem to from their video they used) why wouldn't you expect lots of backers, and maybe consider looking for a good supplier before you start your campaign? Some of these things people tend to overlook is concerning.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by 626Pilot »

Ah, here is their bio: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/ez3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We are the Wood family! Jerry and Lori are the husband and wife, and Jake and Josh are the kids. Jerry is a professional software developer, and 3D printing has re-sparked his interest in hardware and electronics. Jake is a senior at Northeastern University studying computer science and entrepreneurship, and has gained two years of experience through internship and contract experience. Lori is our world-renowned printer builder and mom! Josh sort of cheers us on when he feels like it.
Mom and dad, and little brother who doesn't help much because he's in high school or whatever. And then there's big brother, who is a college senior, taking computer science and (presumably) 3-5 classes about entrepreneurship. Internship, but no serious long-term business experience, and their CS curriculum has no business classes either. That major is probably really good if you want to program for someone else, but for launching a company, it would be better to take some business classes.

I sincerely hope they didn't leverage their house on this. Before, I thought it was just a group of recent graduates who didn't have much to lose, but this is pretty different. :(
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by bubbasnow »

cant you just do a limited release on kickstarter.... i mean start with 20 printers?
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by Nylocke »

Yeah, you can set limited numbers per backing tier. Why more of these small start ups don't do that is beyond me, but its possible.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by Generic Default »

I kinda feel bad for them, although I bet it really sucks for the people who put money in and never got a printer out.

Injection molding is perfect for a printer like that; based on their story it sounds like manufacturing was the main problem. With only about 300 backers, they could put 30,000 into a full size mold with all the parts included, and do a production run for all of the printers.

Or, they could buy a nice VMC for making a mold, a cheap injection molding machine, and rent a small warehouse to do it in. Oversimplified, but anything is better than resin casting or 3d printing individual parts. Their part designs would have to change though. Still, they would at least have been able to sell the used machinery to get some money back.

I also think companies that don't have manufacturing assets should try to design with off the self parts wherever possible and avoid taking on orders without first having stock.

EDIT: Just read this entire article. It's good.
http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-pr ... g-suicide/
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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Generic Default wrote:EDIT: Just read this entire article. It's good.
http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-pr ... g-suicide/
I then had detailed talks with an injection molding consultant. I was quoted around 50k for all the molding all up and only a handful of dollars for parts after that. A point to note here was a 2 month lead time, 1 to even start the job and 1 to complete it. This was quite standard.
With two months and 50K, I could buy my own second-hand injection molding machine and be renting it out to others. Does anyone really care if their parts are made on a machine owned by the same person who originally bought it? :roll:
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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As far as I know, LulzBot still produces all their printer parts by printing them. They've got a HUGE build room and they've gotten very, very good at it.

The injection molding machine is the "easy" part. You might be able to lay your hands on a machine for $50k, but you'll spend double, triple or even more on having injection molds manufactured. One thing I learned in hanging out with Steve last year at MRRF is that injection mold design isn't something you pick up over a weekend. It's actually a pretty darn complex process and the mold itself can be REALLY complex to machine out.

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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by mhackney »

Firstly, 626Pilot, I really enjoyed your analysis. As an investor/entrepreneur myself these are exactly the sorts of hot spots I look for when considering an investment on KickStarter or anywhere else. Inexperienced folks *really* underestimate what it takes to build a product company. Unless you've done it before, start small/conservative and grow from there. This takes time and commitment, something that impatient new entrepreneurs lack.

Gene, LulzBot does have a very large (I think 130 printers) printer farm. They had an open house a few weeks ago - I couldn't go but it would have been interesting. They also use brass threaded inserts on their parts, a great idea that I'll be stealing.

Having done high end IM (ceramic turbine rotors) I agree that the molds are the expensive and challenging part. Rotomolding is an interesting option in that you can make a mold from a printer part in silicone and print lots of them. Creative use of off the shelf components is another good way to go. Looking at their machine, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to redesign that machine to simplify many of the complex parts. SeeMeCNC's use of melamine was brilliant IMHO. They injection molded the H1 and H1.1 parts and were an IM shop so knew a thing or two about IM. Reducing the design to what I call "plate and post" construction (a fancy way of saying 2-1/2D design) allowed them to make a machine very cost effective and scalable. I love design like that!

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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by Neptune »

I will admit that I was one of those "Stary Eyed" consumers looking for their first 3d printer and I attempted to purchase one of these printers. I put my Bitcoin down after the crowd funding was done. What upset me after reading the what I consider to be quite winey, oh feel sorry for us, we didn't know what we were doing, explanation they posted, was that when they took my money, they were already seriously in trouble.

Knowing when to put the breaks on is what stops the train wreck from happening!

I only put half down when I made my purchase and with the current price of Bitcoin being where it is, I'm only out ~100 bucks(which is 3 rolls of ABS). Live and Learn.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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I got a chuckle out of reading the analysis... It aligns with many of my thoughts about it. I actually have an Phoenix 3D printer. It took 36 weeks to get it (they promised 8 to 10 weeks).

I have never been able to successfully printer anything. I couldn't even get it to print the skirt completely let alone the part itself.

Here's my analysis of the printer itself:

1) Poor design. Well, at least as it applies to hot end / cold end, and extruder design. The way it was designed, if the filament wasn't constantly feeding through the nozzle, it would solidify inside the break just inside the heater block.

2) Increadibly poor quality control:

a. I do a lot of silicon mold making and resin parts for other projects. If you de-mold a resin part too soon, it will deform. That clearly happened on the extruder parts. One part of the extruder that holds the bearing that presses against the filament drive gear was twisted so that the bearing didn't make flat contact with the gear. There was no way it could apply even pressure to the filament. I ended up making my own mold and recasting that part correctly.

b. Another part of the extruder that is supposed to guide the filament into the heater block was drilled so poorly that the hole was about 1/8" off so instead of feeding into the hole in the heaterblock, it just hit the outside of the heaterblock.

c. The nozzle that was included was completely blocked... looked like it wasn't drilled through completely.

3) Using 3D printed parts (with bad layer adhesion) in areas of high stress. One piece that held the Z belt to the frame just crumbled. I ended up making a resin piece to replace it.

4) Cheaply made, low current 12v Power supply. Everytime you powered it up, the fan bearing would grind loudly. It took a good 25 min for the heater bed to get to 90 degrees.

4) Poor customer service. There is supposedly a 1 year waranty on the printer. When I brought the issues to their attention (including photos that illustrated the issues clearly) they denied that they could have possibly sent a printer out with those problems. They were unwilling to admit that there were issues. Eventually they just stopped responding to my emails.

I guess I can consider myself lucky to have even received a printer. I've read that even some of the original kickstart backers never received their printers.

The issues I had with the Phoneix 3D printer caused me to research and find the Rostock Max V2 which is an awesome printer. I have printed about 20 + parts of various size and complexity in ABS so far on the V2 and have yet to have a print fail. I just printed the belt tensioners that someone posted in another thread and they came out perfect!

I learned a lot from building the V2 and I am now certain that I can bring the Phonix 3D printer back from the ashes by replacing the hot end/cold end and extruder assembly with a bowden set up using Ezstruder and a stock V2 hotend or some other brand.

My plan is to get the Phoneix 3D up and running and they bring it into my office at work so I can print things throughout the day as needed.

To be continued....
Last edited by mvansomeren on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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mvansomeren wrote:I got a chuckle out of reading the analysis... I aligns with many of my thoughts about it. I actually have an Phoenix 3D printer. It took 36 weeks to get it (they promised 8 to 10 weeks).

I have never been able to successfully printer anything. I couldn't even get it to print the skirt completely let alone the part itself.

......

I learned a lot from building the V2 and I am now certain that I can bring the Phoenix 3D printer back from the ashes by replacing the hot end/cold end and extruder assembly with a bowden set up using Ezstruder and a stock V2 hotend or some other brand.

My plan is to get the Phoenix 3D up and running and they bring it into my office at work so I can print things throughout the day as needed.

To be continued....
So the name is actually appropriate...The Phoenix always rises from the ashes and flys again(as I'm sure yours will)!
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by johnoly99 »

Hmm, I just tried to go to their site and got
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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meh I'm sure it's because they used weebly to create a free SSL certificate that's no longer pointing to the correct location.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by McSlappy »

I used to be against 3d printed parts on printers - mostly because I'd never seen well done 3d printed parts.

Before we started selling the Taz we got one to test and I was actually completely impressed with their printed parts and the way they've combined fasteners (like Mhackney mentioned) into the prints.

While I really like how Lulzbot has done their prints, I'm not totally sold on 3d printed parts - they still need to have a very high standard of production and be clever in their part design. I guess it's like any manufacturing really.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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geneb wrote:The injection molding machine is the "easy" part. You might be able to lay your hands on a machine for $50k, but you'll spend double, triple or even more on having injection molds manufactured. One thing I learned in hanging out with Steve last year at MRRF is that injection mold design isn't something you pick up over a weekend. It's actually a pretty darn complex process and the mold itself can be REALLY complex to machine out.
I wonder if there's a happy medium. You can get a small hand-operated injection molder for not too much money, and you can mill the molds out of aluminum with a CNC mill. Maybe the molds are "only" good for 10,000 shots. That still beats their resin molds, which were cooked after just four!
mhackney wrote:Gene, LulzBot does have a very large (I think 130 printers) printer farm. They had an open house a few weeks ago - I couldn't go but it would have been interesting. They also use brass threaded inserts on their parts, a great idea that I'll be stealing. [...] SeeMeCNC's use of melamine was brilliant IMHO.
That sounds immensely wasteful of space, electricity, and maintenance. What did SeeMeCNC do with melamine?
mvansomeren wrote:Here's my analysis of the printer itself:

1) Poor design.
One thing I don't get about all these Kickstarter printers is that almost all of them are Cartesian machines. The Cartesian problem has already been solved literally thousands of times by hobbyists and startups over the last 9 years. There are plans, kits, and finished Cartesian machines you can get with a HUGE array of different features. Everything form a shoestring $300 printer to a fancy, regulated heated chamber having, multi-nozzle, $4,000 machine. Why does the world need yet another of some exceedingly tiny variation on the exact same thing? They're just doing the same hard work a thousand other people already did, in a market where you can scarcely find a niche, because it's completely flooded with every option, and every reasonable price point imaginable.

Whenever I've tried to sell things, I've found that the time to get in on a market is when there's little to nothing in the niche you want to serve. If you do that, you can write your own checks. If the market got saturated, I would just be another number. It wouldn't matter how amazing the product was, how good it looked, how unique and cool it was, etc. Sales would go down. People would spend more money to buy stuff from other people that had less quality and far fewer features than what I sold. Maybe some of them just wanted the other thing, but I'm sure some of it is just because people couldn't find my stuff in all the white noise.

I would rather see a new Delta, SCARA, polar, etc. printer, something with features other printers just don't have. How about a heavy-duty machine with something like a multiple Fly-N-Strude mod? What if you made a Delta with really beefy belts and arms, so you could mill PCBs? What about a tool changer? What about a Delta that can extrude plastic, OR things like clay and chocolate, and they sell you the extruders for both? What about an effector with one or two wrist axes? There has to be someone out there saying, "I wish my printer's robotics could just do this one thing."
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

Post by Generic Default »

There are a bunch of reasons that the market has been flooded with nearly identical machines over the last few years;

1) They are based on previous machines that the designers saw.

2) Overall lack of funding; why try something new if you might run out of money without getting a working prototype?

3) Lack of machine tools in start-ups.

4) Lack of diversity in electronics that control printers. Nearly all of the boards are limited to 4-5 steppers and some heaters and thermistors.

5) Lack of manufacturing knowledge in start-ups. Especially among mechanical engineers in their 20's. They don't teach it in engineering school.

6) Limited printer software and firmware. It's easy to design a printer. Making software is hard, uncertain, and legally in the grey area (software IP).

7) Restrictive patents.
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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Generic Default wrote:3) Lack of machine tools in start-ups.

5) Lack of manufacturing knowledge in start-ups. Especially among mechanical engineers in their 20's. They don't teach it in engineering school.
And this is why I'm glad I'm taking tool and die classes in high school...
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Re: Phoenix3D postmortem: Failed after successful Kickstarte

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Generic Default wrote:4) Lack of diversity in electronics that control printers. Nearly all of the boards are limited to 4-5 steppers and some heaters and thermistors.
This.
5) Lack of manufacturing knowledge in start-ups. Especially among mechanical engineers in their 20's. They don't teach it in engineering school.
I find this true of many tech majors. I watched programmers from schools like USC, with high GPAs, getting fired because they were useless without an instructor's shoulder to tap on every five minutes. They simply didn't know how to operate without a teacher to ask questions of. And because they never did anything but what they were assigned, they were flabbergasted at the prospect of figuring out how to do something on their own.
7) Restrictive patents.
I don't get why every patent filed automatically gets 20 years of government-enforced monopoly. 3D printing patents don't need 20 years to pay off. I doubt a single industry CEO could make a cogent argument about why they need a fifth of a century to recoup investment on a plastic extruder, or some kinematic setup. This isn't rocket engines, or a cure for dementia. It's just a machine that makes stuff with plastic out of straightforward, cheap robotic parts, that can run on a dog slow processor.
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