Print Failure on second layer [SOLVED]

[Hunin]

On the second layer, my print is failing to adhere to the first layer. I am really frustrated by this as it has happened many times. I am printing using Hatchbox ABS. I've tried extruder temperatures from 215 C to 235 C with nothing really working. Bed temperature is 90 C. Here is a picture of the failed print. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[nebbian]

What layer height are you using? What slicer?

I use 250 degrees for ABS to get good layer bonding. It looks to me like your Z calibration, extruder calibration, or infill settings might be off.

[Hunin]

This was printed at 225 C for first layer and 228 C for second layer extruder temperatures which is the setting I used for my only successful ABS prints. The layer height is 0.2mm, infill is 30%. I'm using Slic3r as the slicing program.

[dajay23D]

since it's only the 2nd layer, did you observe WHEN it's causing this? Is it literally not adhering? or not enough filament is coming out? From the picture, it looks like a jam to me, but I never really heard of ABS jamming. What hot end are you using? Is it stock? 2nd layer adhering issue doesn't really make sense to me. If you got your 1st layer to stick, then your 2nd layer shouldn't be an issue and so forth....etc.
You could also check your retraction settings

[Hunin]

The issue happens at the beginning of the second layer infill. In this picture, the issue happened after the perimeter almost immediately during infill. The continuation of printing is due to my response time and the printer receiving the kill command. Sometimes the issue happens about half way through the second layer infill. I think there is enough filament coming out because I always see some filament extrude out of the hot end after the print. I did calibrate the extruder for 100mm using the straw method.

I am using the stock hot end with the 25mm PEEK fan and stock shroud.

[mhackney]

Is this a new build of a Rostock printer? From the photo, it almost looks like your Z height is off (too high) as your first layer looks "thick" and is not properly filled.

A couple of recommendations:

1) verify that your Z movement is accurate. You can do a quick test by zeroing the nozzle at the bed (use the paper test method) and then issue a 'G1 Z100 F1000' command to raise the nozzle 100mm. Measure the distance from the bed to the nozzle tip as accurately as you can - calipers work well for this but even a finely graduated ruler will get you in the ballpark. If it is significantly more than 100mm, you need to change your arm lengths in firmware and recalibrate as per the user guide.

2) once you know that your Z is good, read my links and start with the single layer test until you get a nearly perfect first layer. Your first layer does not look completely bonded, seems to be too thick and has too many gaps at the corners. Focus on that until you get it right and then move on to printing a second layer.

[Hunin]

This is a new build of a 1 year old Rostock printer.

I will definitely check Z movement tonight. I think the Z height is not 100% accurate because I see the bead drop a tiny bit before sticking to the print surface. Thanks for the tip.

[dajay23D]

but the weird thing is 1st layer seem to stick OK. I've never had a decent first layer and a bad 2nd layer. It's 1st layer or nothing...

[Xenocrates]

Have you tried another spool quickly? Some people have bad luck with Hatchbox, and I've had similar results that were cured by swapping spools (to another hatchbox spool) Warm colors almost seem like they have the oddest issues.

[Hunin]

This is a print of the layer fan using no name eBay ABS filament. It was my second print before I changed colors to print it again in orange to match the printer's color.

[Eaglezsoar]

This is a print of the layer fan using no name eBay ABS filament. It was my second print before I changed colors to print it again in orange to match the printer's color.

layer_fan_side2.jpg

It has a few "nubs" but all things considered, that print doesn't look bad at all.
Temperature, retraction and other settings get configured and it won't be long before you'll be knocking out perfect prints.
Good Job!

[drunkenmugsy]

I think the Z height is not 100% accurate because I see the bead drop a tiny bit before sticking to the print surface.

Your first layer should not 'drop' at all. It should be squished to the bed. This could cause your second layer not to adhere to the first causing what you are seeing. The inner corners on the first layer look like they are being dragged around a bit. This is more proof your first layer is not stuck properly. I have used 238C extruder(E3DV6) and 110C bed successfully with ABS. Extruder will vary, bed should be hot for ABS. Especially on taller parts.

Are you cooling at all? In my limited experience no cooling is needed for ABS. I even print most things without the fans even on the extruder plate.

This photo has some good examples. If your first layer does not look like the middle it is to low(left) or to high(right).

[Hunin]

I was able to recalibrate the Z height and I was 0.80 mm too high. At 0.90mm the nozzle pinned the paper to the bed, 0.85mm the nozzle had a lot of friction between the bed and paper. At 0.80mm the paper moved with a small amount of friction. The first layer is looking very good now.

The image drunkenmugsy posted from the user manual is awesome.

[geneb]

That image is in the user manual. *coughs*



g.

[Hunin]

That image is in the user manual. *coughs*



g.

Previous comment amended for accuracy.

[mhackney]

Great, looks like you found the problem.

[Hunin]

I think I've solved the first layer / second layer issues. I was able to print a few test objects last night. Thanks for everyone's help!

First layer of hollow pyramid.

Hollow pyramid

Another layer fan shroud in orange.

[mhackney]

THAT's a nice looking first layer from the bottom. Spend some time to print the single layer object in my signature link until the top looks that good.

The rest of the part looks like it's too hot - see the Hershey Kiss effect at the very top - that's melting. I'm guessing you don't have a part cooling fan since you are printing the shroud for one! Take this one, make it fit quickly and then print a "keeper" with fan cooling on. The quality of the cooled part will be like night and day.

[Hunin]

The rest of the part looks like it's too hot - see the Hershey Kiss effect at the very top - that's melting. I'm guessing you don't have a part cooling fan since you are printing the shroud for one! Take this one, make it fit quickly and then print a "keeper" with fan cooling on. The quality of the cooled part will be like night and day.

I'm using ABS filament. I didn't think you should use the layer fan cooling for ABS. I actually have a cardboard shroud around the print area to keep heat inside and temperature variation at a minimum.

[mhackney]

Actually, you can and should use a layer fan for ABS in situations like this where you have a small cross section that needs to be cooled. Please read my post #12 about layer fans and how to use them CORRECTLY. And my sticky post on fans.

The sticky post on Printing with ABS - A Primer sys "almost never" and keep in mind this is 2 years old and predates a lot of the information I've posted on why blasting air at a part is a bad thing. A well defined low volume stream of air directed at the right place is the best cooling strategy and is perfectly applicable to ABS. I use cooling on polycarb, Nylon and even acetal for parts that warrant it. Look at this part:

[img]http://mhackney.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v1 ... 2658-3.jpg[/img]
Those thin posts require careful cooling to maintain a perfect surface finish and exacting tolerances.

[Hunin]

Actually, you can and should use a layer fan for ABS in situations like this where you have a small cross section that needs to be cooled. Please read my post #12 about layer fans and how to use them CORRECTLY. And my sticky post on fans.

I'll try it tonight!

[mhackney]

See those lime green tubes? They are soda straws. The fan holder is the same one you printed. I cut the end off and epoxy 2 straws in place - these are the straws with the flexy bellows. I can then direct the tips right next to the nozzle at the part. I NEVER run this at more than 50% and for ABS and thin parts like this, typically 30% is enough. The part being printed has smooth as silk pillars and is ABS. The one on the bed is warped and if you look has all sorts of issues. This was before I used PEI and when I also blasted a stream of air at the part. I learned about and tested all my "fan work" when I developed the 3D printed fly fishing reel. It requires nearly perfect printing technique.

[Hunin]

Here is the second attempt at the hollow pyramid. I reduced the retraction speed from the default 100mm/s to 40mm/s and kept the retraction length at 4mm. After the pyramid base was done, I turned on the fan at 30%. Still need some tweaking at the top which is still a glob of filament.

[mhackney]

Progress. Keep working at it.