Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
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Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Uneven or rough bottom surfaces on your parts, parts that don't stay stuck or release the way you like or messy first layers... if like me this frustrates the hell out of you then read on...
Last week I decided to try a few things to get the surface finish on the bottom of my parts smooth and high gloss because I was sick of getting a rough finish and the PEI sheet just isn't suitable for all applications. This may be obvious to some or may already be done by some people out there but being new to repraps, having only ever used big fdm machines, this was for me one of those things that has made a big difference to the overall quality of my prints.
I'll try to keep this simple and short so you're not reading all day. "UHU" glue the one that most people use for bed adhesion, and I'm told "Elmers Disappearing Purple" (thanks McSlappy) are both soluble in water aka H2o. After cleaning my plate for the umpteenth time in the laundry sink and being sick of reapplying glue yet again, I finally decided to throw my glue stick in a jar of water and have a go at brushing it on with a cheap 50c foam brush. I haven't looked back since! Not only does it take the hassle out of the application but you very rarely have to wash you plate, and there is virtually no cleanup required to the bottom of parts, I also haven't removed the glass from the machine in over a week. It leaves the base of the parts super glossy, sticks AND releases parts really well, even better than PEI IMHO, and works for ABS, PC, Bridge and probably many others that I haven't tested yet.
Basically you put the glue stick in not too much water, say about enough water in a jam jar to cover the piece of glue stick is enough to start with. You can leave it sit there and let it very slowly dissolve or you can give it a hand and shake it up a bit it doesn't really matter, either way you are looking for a milky white solution that is not too thick. Clean your plate first, calibrate to the clean surface if you need to and then stick the heated bed on set to whatever temp suite you, I use 85C. I use a 2" wide foam brush to apply it but any applicator will do, something that absorbs some solution and is as smooth as possible to lay down an even coat, maybe even a sponge if you have nothing else, so long as its nice and smooth. As the plate is heating up you want to apply an even but thin coat all over the glass, going back and forth, as well as diagonally across the plate and work the glue solution into the glass well without actually putting TOO much glue down. You may, like me find that you get a small amount of foamy type bubbles, this is fine just keep working it in, you want to do this gently and evenly as it heats up and try to keep your glue as thin and as even as possible.
Trial and error and you will work out the perfect thickness pretty quickly, it's not rocket science. I'm really bad at explaining things usually so I'll let the photos do the talking and if I haven't made myself understood or anyone has any questions I can answer I'll do my best, hopefully this will be of help to someone. With a bit of luck a mate will chime in with a howto video to show the method in action...
Gluestick in water, this is my mix before I worked out that less is more and added more water. My working mix with gluestick completely dissolved, I like mine very thin to start with so I can work it in well and still end up with a nice thin, even coat. The well used foam brush, notice no caked on glue as I'm only applying thin and even coats. Close up of the plate with glue applied and printing ABS with no brim, you can barely see there's any coating at all! Another printing ABS with brim. As you are applying the coats, just before it dries completely while there is still a small amount of moisture, stop brushing and the surface will even out slightly and then dry clear with virtually no brush marks. Printing Taulman Nylon Bridge with no brim, sticks great and releases no problem once done, printing bridge with no brim is great because I find its a pain to remove. Its kind of hard to see but this is the finish you can expect once done. Also as noted by a fellow forum member the print releases with no glue attached meaning even if you rinse the parts in water after printing they still maintain that glossy finish!
Last week I decided to try a few things to get the surface finish on the bottom of my parts smooth and high gloss because I was sick of getting a rough finish and the PEI sheet just isn't suitable for all applications. This may be obvious to some or may already be done by some people out there but being new to repraps, having only ever used big fdm machines, this was for me one of those things that has made a big difference to the overall quality of my prints.
I'll try to keep this simple and short so you're not reading all day. "UHU" glue the one that most people use for bed adhesion, and I'm told "Elmers Disappearing Purple" (thanks McSlappy) are both soluble in water aka H2o. After cleaning my plate for the umpteenth time in the laundry sink and being sick of reapplying glue yet again, I finally decided to throw my glue stick in a jar of water and have a go at brushing it on with a cheap 50c foam brush. I haven't looked back since! Not only does it take the hassle out of the application but you very rarely have to wash you plate, and there is virtually no cleanup required to the bottom of parts, I also haven't removed the glass from the machine in over a week. It leaves the base of the parts super glossy, sticks AND releases parts really well, even better than PEI IMHO, and works for ABS, PC, Bridge and probably many others that I haven't tested yet.
Basically you put the glue stick in not too much water, say about enough water in a jam jar to cover the piece of glue stick is enough to start with. You can leave it sit there and let it very slowly dissolve or you can give it a hand and shake it up a bit it doesn't really matter, either way you are looking for a milky white solution that is not too thick. Clean your plate first, calibrate to the clean surface if you need to and then stick the heated bed on set to whatever temp suite you, I use 85C. I use a 2" wide foam brush to apply it but any applicator will do, something that absorbs some solution and is as smooth as possible to lay down an even coat, maybe even a sponge if you have nothing else, so long as its nice and smooth. As the plate is heating up you want to apply an even but thin coat all over the glass, going back and forth, as well as diagonally across the plate and work the glue solution into the glass well without actually putting TOO much glue down. You may, like me find that you get a small amount of foamy type bubbles, this is fine just keep working it in, you want to do this gently and evenly as it heats up and try to keep your glue as thin and as even as possible.
Trial and error and you will work out the perfect thickness pretty quickly, it's not rocket science. I'm really bad at explaining things usually so I'll let the photos do the talking and if I haven't made myself understood or anyone has any questions I can answer I'll do my best, hopefully this will be of help to someone. With a bit of luck a mate will chime in with a howto video to show the method in action...
Gluestick in water, this is my mix before I worked out that less is more and added more water. My working mix with gluestick completely dissolved, I like mine very thin to start with so I can work it in well and still end up with a nice thin, even coat. The well used foam brush, notice no caked on glue as I'm only applying thin and even coats. Close up of the plate with glue applied and printing ABS with no brim, you can barely see there's any coating at all! Another printing ABS with brim. As you are applying the coats, just before it dries completely while there is still a small amount of moisture, stop brushing and the surface will even out slightly and then dry clear with virtually no brush marks. Printing Taulman Nylon Bridge with no brim, sticks great and releases no problem once done, printing bridge with no brim is great because I find its a pain to remove. Its kind of hard to see but this is the finish you can expect once done. Also as noted by a fellow forum member the print releases with no glue attached meaning even if you rinse the parts in water after printing they still maintain that glossy finish!
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I can attest to the impressiveness of this method. Not only does it hold really well, but when you lift parts off it doesn't even seem to lift the glue (like when using a regular glue stick) and so it's usable again!
Awesome find there Shapeshifter!
Awesome find there Shapeshifter!
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Have you printed large objects all the way out within 1/2-1" from the edges of the bed? I've had lots of issues with lifting out there and I'd love to find a solid solution - granted part of my problem is uneven heat distribution.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
This looks like a great way to do it, I'm going to try it as soon as I get a foam brush. How many times can you re-use it before the glue is flaking off or completely gone? Will this work with purple glue sticks, or even regular liquid glue in water?
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I do something simular, I dissolved the glue stick in windshield washer fluid that is rated freezing temprature.
Since the fluid has alcohol it dries really quick
Since the fluid has alcohol it dries really quick
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Hi, OK i'll try answer the questions as best I can..
Firstly @ Jfettig, I haven't printed out as far as the edge of the bed yet using this method but I cant see why it wouldn't work... I will try in the next few days and do the calibration circle and see how it goes. It is not so super duper that it will help you if you have geometry problems or other calibration issues which are hampering your prints but if your nozzle is tracking OK in relation to the bed then I am sure this would work fine. It is the best method I have tried so far in relation to adhesion and bottom surface finish including printing on foundation foam and plastic bases in the Stratasys I used to have.
@ Generic Default, I have only used this with UHU glue sticks but McSlappy has been using it with the same success with Elmers Dissapearing Purple. I have tried it with PVA which I was using for printing Taulman Bridge but to be honest it is cleaner and easier for me to use this method for the Bridge, as well as with the rest but the opposite was not true, for me anyway... Using PVA applied to glass in this same way didn't work very well for printing in ABS or PC as they would either not stick or lift off after a short period of time. I can't answer for PLA as I only ever used it once and not with this method. The nice surface finish and multi-purpose use was what really impressed me with this method.
The surface I have printed on 4 times without any touch up at all. I could probably have printed many more but what I have been doing is after every few prints I get the foam brush and just dip it in some fresh water or very weak solution and re-work the surface (takes about 30 seconds) so that there is no chance of the quality of the finish being affected. I will probably let it go one day and see how many times I can print before re-touching at all but the parts I have been printing lately I haven't wanted to leave any room for diminished quality. Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance as they say.
I would love to hear how you go with this method, if you do or don't like it etc etc... If there is anything else you need to know i'll help if I can.
Firstly @ Jfettig, I haven't printed out as far as the edge of the bed yet using this method but I cant see why it wouldn't work... I will try in the next few days and do the calibration circle and see how it goes. It is not so super duper that it will help you if you have geometry problems or other calibration issues which are hampering your prints but if your nozzle is tracking OK in relation to the bed then I am sure this would work fine. It is the best method I have tried so far in relation to adhesion and bottom surface finish including printing on foundation foam and plastic bases in the Stratasys I used to have.
@ Generic Default, I have only used this with UHU glue sticks but McSlappy has been using it with the same success with Elmers Dissapearing Purple. I have tried it with PVA which I was using for printing Taulman Bridge but to be honest it is cleaner and easier for me to use this method for the Bridge, as well as with the rest but the opposite was not true, for me anyway... Using PVA applied to glass in this same way didn't work very well for printing in ABS or PC as they would either not stick or lift off after a short period of time. I can't answer for PLA as I only ever used it once and not with this method. The nice surface finish and multi-purpose use was what really impressed me with this method.
The surface I have printed on 4 times without any touch up at all. I could probably have printed many more but what I have been doing is after every few prints I get the foam brush and just dip it in some fresh water or very weak solution and re-work the surface (takes about 30 seconds) so that there is no chance of the quality of the finish being affected. I will probably let it go one day and see how many times I can print before re-touching at all but the parts I have been printing lately I haven't wanted to leave any room for diminished quality. Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance as they say.
I would love to hear how you go with this method, if you do or don't like it etc etc... If there is anything else you need to know i'll help if I can.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I started doing this a few days ago, and so far I'm liking it a lot. This is the best way to print with nylon that I've tried so far (haven't tried garolite yet)
Adhesion is excellent, the surface finish on the part is much smoother and more consistent than with rub-on glue stick.
1) Put glue stick in small food container with lid.
2) Fill it up with water. The container is about the size of a small soda can.
3) Microwave to dissolve the glue and heat the mixture.
4) Brush onto heated bed with foam brush (in my case onto PEI surface on broken mirror).
5) Print!
The print does pull off some of the residue, but putting more on is easy and doesn't change the surface finish. It is more grippy than regular glue stick and holds down parts better.
My mixture looks like the picture below. It's more of a sludge than a liquid so I should probably add more water. The orange thing is the glue stick pusher. Too lazy to take it out.
Adhesion is excellent, the surface finish on the part is much smoother and more consistent than with rub-on glue stick.
1) Put glue stick in small food container with lid.
2) Fill it up with water. The container is about the size of a small soda can.
3) Microwave to dissolve the glue and heat the mixture.
4) Brush onto heated bed with foam brush (in my case onto PEI surface on broken mirror).
5) Print!
The print does pull off some of the residue, but putting more on is easy and doesn't change the surface finish. It is more grippy than regular glue stick and holds down parts better.
My mixture looks like the picture below. It's more of a sludge than a liquid so I should probably add more water. The orange thing is the glue stick pusher. Too lazy to take it out.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Hey Generic, thanks for reporting back, that's great to hear! I will give the microwave a go now and see if it helps to dissolve the glue a bit more as mine still has a few chunks... I am wondering if you put it on a bit thinner if it would pull off any glue at all? Mine very rarely takes any glue off with the part, my glue solution is a lot thinner though so applying it thickly would take multiple thin coats anyway.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I had the time set a little to long on the microwave,,,, I checked it at the 3 minute mark and had a purple mess brewing.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I should have said that it takes about 20-30 seconds, sorry!
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
I had to over kill something this weekend
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
This sounds awesome! Nice find. Going to try this in the next couple days. Thanks for the awesome idea!
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Hi Tinyhead, no problem and please let us know how you go.
@ Mac... I had it set to only 30 seconds luckily lol but then I gave it another 30 and nearly lost the lot short and sweet does the trick well.
Great idea though Generic its all homogeneous now although quite thick! I now know why yours looks the way it does in the cup, still seems to work the same though but just slightly harder to get it perfectly thin so I added some more water gave it a quick shake and it instantly mixed evenly so no need to microwave a second time.
@ Mac... I had it set to only 30 seconds luckily lol but then I gave it another 30 and nearly lost the lot short and sweet does the trick well.
Great idea though Generic its all homogeneous now although quite thick! I now know why yours looks the way it does in the cup, still seems to work the same though but just slightly harder to get it perfectly thin so I added some more water gave it a quick shake and it instantly mixed evenly so no need to microwave a second time.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
i just applied the first time with this method.. used a purple elmers glue stick, it dissolved well... all good..
we will see how my first print shapes up
EDIT: so i did this last night... first few prints were quite good... Love this trick.. parts pop right off and are very smooth and shiny
thanks
we will see how my first print shapes up
EDIT: so i did this last night... first few prints were quite good... Love this trick.. parts pop right off and are very smooth and shiny
thanks
Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
Did anyone try a large box with this method? I've got lifting with PLA for a 7"x7" box I'm trying to print.
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
how did I miss this??!! nice! seems obvious to do, but of course i wouldn't have thought of it! I'll try a box this weekend using dissolved purple disappearing. I've been using Aquanet on purple ABS and the edges of the box has been lifting, may be other problems contributing. Box isn't 7" x 7" though. More like 3" x 3".
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Re: Bed adhesion trick for cheap high gloss finish.
shapeshifter, thank you for your idea and describing how to implement it.
The pictures were a great way to help explain your technique.
You have helped a lot of users and we appreciate it.
The pictures were a great way to help explain your technique.
You have helped a lot of users and we appreciate it.