Next generation Duet

dc42
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Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

Some of you may already be aware that a new Duet is in the works. This is a joint design between Escher3D (basically me) and Think3DPrint3D. I am pleased to report that after several months of development, the prototypes are working well, and we have just commissioned a small run of pre-production boards to the same design. Some of these are already assigned to beta testers, but there are some left over. These will be offered for sale at a substantial discount compared to the production boards.

We haven't released the full specification yet. Most of the best improvements are not yet public, although a few details have been released at https://www.duet3d.com/.

I'll post again when we are ready to release the full specification and I can give a price and availability of the pre-production boards.

The Duet 0.8.5 will continue to be available as log as there is a demand for it.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Xenocrates »

Very cool. I look forward to seeing more about it, and if I build another printer, I know what I'll be using (I can't justify going for pre-production hardware this soon after moving the Duet though). Those daughter-boards are an interesting solution. I do hope that they will work better and more fool-proofly than the current PT100/thermocouple setups. I definitely had some issues with that (Due to me being an idiot who couldn't handle mirroring in my head for some reason then).

If I may make some suggestions/requests, I'd like it if we could have larger silk-screened footprints, or otherwise move things like the VIN and ground labels out from under components so that they are more visible. They are on the back which is nice, but sometimes I really wished I could have seen them more clearly on the front ( I could see hints that there is silkscreening there, but usually not enough to read) as well as:
Fused outputs: I managed to kill one duet with an incident shorting the fan leads together, then added inline fuses. I'd love to have them be fused by default (Or have an option to buy a slightly larger version with either resetable (PPTC) or socketed fuses). I know this adds costs and complexity, but there seems to have been others with similar issues, and fan leads are a common failure point in printers.
Unpopulated external driver headers: just little banks with the Step, enable, and DIR on pads that a header could be soldered to or not, for those wanting beefier drivers that the ones on board. I know we can remap them to the pins the Duex4 uses, but I'm not certain if you could do that with the DueX4 attached as well.
A little ADC calibration board. Just the resistors with the correct connector on the bottom, and and either a jumper or switch, as well as a label as to which position is for what adjustment and what it should read. I'd pay money for something like that, and it would potentially be a useful test jig for you as well.
and for the PT100 daughter boards, the ability to use a standard jumper rather than a wire one to link force and sense would be nice, if that's still needed (It doesn't look to be with what you have there)
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Jimustanguitar »

Xenocrates wrote:I'd like it if we could have larger silk-screened footprints, or otherwise move things like the VIN and ground labels out from under components so that they are more visible. They are on the back which is nice, but sometimes I really wished I could have seen them more clearly on the front


I like how some Arduinos have labeled headers.
Image
I'm sure it's pricey to do, but it's a neat convenience.


+1 for fuses. Even if they're PITA to change, any protection is better than none. I really like the new Rambo design with automotive style fuses, but that obviously takes up a lot of board real estate... Mini ATC, perhaps?

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Xenocrates »

Jimustanguitar wrote:
+1 for fuses. Even if they're PITA to change, any protection is better than none. I really like the new Rambo design with automotive style fuses, but that obviously takes up a lot of board real estate... Mini ATC, perhaps?


I was thinking something like either the older Rambo's nano-fuses, or PPTC fuses (Which are non-replacable, but self resetting through hole fuses that would fit in about the same footprint but be taller (At least for the fan/hotend fuses. It seems that there isn't currently info for the 12A 30V version, but the 16V 14A version would fit pretty nicely. Not to bad for a board footprint standpoint (Although admittedly, adding anything like that would be an issue with you guys working to move headers way from the edges, and also enlarging the heater headers). If we could get mini ATC or automotive fuses, even better.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

Xenocrates wrote:If I may make some suggestions/requests, I'd like it if we could have larger silk-screened footprints, or otherwise move things like the VIN and ground labels out from under components so that they are more visible. They are on the back which is nice, but sometimes I really wished I could have seen them more clearly on the front ( I could see hints that there is silkscreening there, but usually not enough to read) as well as:


The problem with that is space. We thought about making the board larger, but that would have made it harder for users and OEM customers of the Duet to upgrade; which is why we kept the same size. But you've given me an idea, which is to make a printable PDF that illustrates the board and all its connections.

Xenocrates wrote:Fused outputs: I managed to kill one duet with an incident shorting the fan leads together, then added inline fuses. I'd love to have them be fused by default (Or have an option to buy a slightly larger version with either resetable (PPTC) or socketed fuses). I know this adds costs and complexity, but there seems to have been others with similar issues, and fan leads are a common failure point in printers.


Space again. The resettable fuses don't work well for high current circuits. Auto fuses are better, but need a lot of space. It's also not certain that they would blow before the mosfet in the associated circuit burns out. If we decide to make a larger board then I think we will add auto fuses. We've made a design change that should mean that on the new board, if you short a fan out then only the fan mosfet fails.

Xenocrates wrote:Unpopulated external driver headers: just little banks with the Step, enable, and DIR on pads that a header could be soldered to or not, for those wanting beefier drivers that the ones on board. I know we can remap them to the pins the Duex4 uses, but I'm not certain if you could do that with the DueX4 attached as well.


Again, not enough space. We haven't yet had anyone who wants to use both external drivers and a DueX4.

Xenocrates wrote:A little ADC calibration board. Just the resistors with the correct connector on the bottom, and and either a jumper or switch, as well as a label as to which position is for what adjustment and what it should read. I'd pay money for something like that, and it would potentially be a useful test jig for you as well.


The ADC on the new board self-calibrates. You should not need the M305 H and L parameters any more.

Xenocrates wrote:and for the PT100 daughter boards, the ability to use a standard jumper rather than a wire one to link force and sense would be nice, if that's still needed (It doesn't look to be with what you have there)


We've linked those pins together by default, because the only PT100 we know that people are using is the E3D one, which is 2-wire. You can cut two traces on the PCB if you want to use a 4-wire PT100.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Xenocrates »

Thanks for the info DC. I figured space would be the issue. Looks like I'll keep making my cabling with inline fuses for the foreseeable future. I do wish fuse holders small enough for practical inline use for our applications existed. Oh well. I do understand that there are few people with quite the same desires that I have, if any, so I did expect a lot of my requests to be bounced for one reason or another (Either impractical or not enough demand was what I expected and got). Either way, I'm definitely a fan of the Duet, and I understand the desire to maintain mounting compatibility (That's my current goal with the Max, is to make it so that you could swap them almost trivially with a RAMBO or other compatible board. I like clean drop in solutions. The size it's at gives me that for the Max. If I designed a printer new, I'd go for a larger board space and a wiring harness built to handle fuses)

In any case, thank you for taking the time to respond to my suggestions. I appreciate the work you do, and the time you take to help users and address concerns. I haven't ever had such a good experience with electronics in the past, especially not DIY stuff. Your documentation is excellent, and your response time on questions, bugfixes, and feature requests is second to none.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

I should add that the hardware design is now frozen. We did take user requests from a couple of other 3D printing forums during the design process, but not from this one because I only joined it recently.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by geneb »

When doing a pinout chart for the new board, you might want to take a peek at this site: http://www.pighixxx.com/test/pinoutspg/boards/ - they make insanely great pinout charts and the style is very clear. I actually have some of them printed out (two sided) on 120lb card stock and then laminated.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

Time for a pic and another feature release. Today's new feature is...

Image

WiFi !

We've replaced the Ethernet socket by a WiFi adapter. This makes it easier to connect into most home and work networks, because no cable is required. The lack of a need for any communications cable makes it more practical to put the electronics at the top of the printer, which is an attractive option for deltas. The web server runs in a separate processor on the WiFi module, freeing up CPU time and a lot of memory space on the main processor.

So far I've been calling this the next-generation Duet and abbreviating it to Duet NG, however the official name of the board is:

Duet WiFi

We realise that this change won't suit everyone. However, we believe that the time has come to change from a wired to a wireless connection. Nearly every broadband-connected home has WiFi, but very few homes have wired Ethernet except at the router. Most businesses have both. If WiFi range from your router is a problem, it'e simple and inexpensive to add a range extender. If you are one of the minority with wired Ethernet but no WiFi, you can connect an inexpensive device such as the TP-Link WR710N to provide a WiFi access point - not just for the Duet WiFi but also for your smartphone, tablet etc. And of course a USB interface is still provided. The Duet WiFi supports WPA-2 encryption for network security, and we'll also be making changes to make the login password mechanism more secure.

Some other features we are announcing today:

* Higher heated bed current. We're hoping to qualify the Duet WiFi to 15A, but we still have thermal tests to carry out before we can guarantee that.

* Connectors for a PanelOne 20x4 text display. Obviously I'd rather you bought a PanelDue, however we've decided to address the demand for low-cost displays too. It may be a while before the firmware support for PanelOne is completed because we have so many other cool features to add in firmware.

* Resilience against misuse. Duets are already quite resistant to misuse, but there are a few things they can't survive, for example a short from +12V or +24V to the ground side of a thermistor input. On the Duet WiFi we've added extra protection to many of the inputs. We're not guaranteeing that the board will survive abuse, but we've made it more likely that it will, or that the damage will be confined to one or two components that can be replaced relatively easily.

There is now a new web site for all things Duet, https://www.duet3d.com/. There's already some information there, with more to come. Next week we'll publish the final installment of this trilogy on duet3d.com, not here - although I'll post a link to it here as well.

PS - some of you may be wondering whether the use of WiFi compromises the file upload speed. Judge for yourself:

Image

Not quite 1Mbyte/sec, but close.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by bvandiepenbos »

Meh. WIFI ;(
sad to see the wired port eliminated.
I find that WIFI is just is not as reliable or fast as wired.

why not leave Ethernet port and let people use a wifi dongle if they want wireless?
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Xenocrates »

I second the meh on WIFI. I would prefer to see the wired port continue to be available (although I understand why you want to make the move for most people). I disagree with having any autonomous machine have wifi-access for people to start and stop jobs. Having had a finger caught between a gauge block and a centerdrill in a mill when someone touched a physical control without thinking about what it would do, I despise the idea of having any machine tools that don't have a chamber interlock be remotely controlled, especially with commodity devices. This would be a terrible thing at conventions as well, because either we will see so much wireless interference that none of the machines will work, or machines may be controlled by unauthorized users, malicious or otherwise.

Perhaps a separate larger board with fused connections, a wired port, and larger dimensions could be made (A Duet pro of sorts). Of course, your current board is as you said on a hardware freeze currently, so I can't expect this feedback to make it into beta hardware at very least, and probably not final hardware. However, If there isn't a firmware/hardware option to completely disable the wifi, could a firmware option be added? I would prefer to have it be jumper based, with a jumper to cut power into the module completely, or a connectivity daughterboard with either a WIFI or ethernet module available, but both add cost and take board space that aren't available.

The silkscreen does look somewhat more readable in this version. Once again, I don't mean to discourage any work you or the rest of the Duet team is doing. I'm very happy with both your firmware and the .8.5 board I have, with a few small exceptions that I understand happened for practical reasons, and I realize that every request I make would increase the board cost by much more than the cost of the components involved. I also realize that if you did make a Duet pro, that due to the lower demand for it even compared to a normal controller, it would have additional overhead and that the fixed cost would be spread over more units.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by bot »

I agree, wifi is a downside to me. Huge downside. I may consider sticking with 0.8.5 if this is the final version.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Mac The Knife »

dc42 wrote:I should add that the hardware design is now frozen. We did take user requests from a couple of other 3D printing forums during the design process, but not from this one because I only joined it recently.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

bvandiepenbos wrote:Meh. WIFI ;(
sad to see the wired port eliminated.
I find that WIFI is just is not as reliable or fast as wired.

why not leave Ethernet port and let people use a wifi dongle if they want wireless?


As I tried to explain, a lot more home users have WiFi than have wired Ethernet other than in the room where the router is - which is often in an inconvenient place because it's where the telephone line comes into the property. So it makes more sense for us to provide WiFi by default. The small number of users who only have wired Ethernet can add a £20/$30 access point.

Yes wired Ethernet can be faster than WiFi - but a 3D printer doesn't need a high speed connection.

I have used a WiFi to Ethernet adapter with a Duet in the past, and it's a pain. It has to be configured using a laptop computer, and even then I didn't always get it to work reliably - whereas every other WiFi device I have worked flawlessly. The "dongle" you talk of isn't like a USB dongle, it needs its own PSU.

Having both WiFi and wired Ethernet on the board would have been technically possible, but would have reduced the expansion capacity and increased the cost significantly - and the board would have had to be larger. A lot of people already won't buy a Duet because there are cheaper Chinese-built boards.

If there is enough demand then we could produce a wired Ethernet version of the new Duet.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by geneb »

Why not make the network interface a pluggable module? That way people can have the connectivity option they want and you expand your potential customer base with a slight increase in cost.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Howler »

I personally think wifi is a great addition. I think they made the right choice here. Wifi is way more common than wired ethernet connections these days.

I don't think you get any real tangible benefit from wired over wireless in something like this. Yes, you might get slightly faster transfer speeds, but almost a meg a second is pretty darn fast. If you're transferring 100 meg gcode files, and cant wait 2 minutes for that to complete, you're doing it wrong. Transferring is really the only time speed would matter. Otherwise, you are just checking the status of the print, etc. which would use very little bandwidth.

I'm glad I don't have to dig out one of my WRT54G routers and convert them to a wired -> wifi bridge for the duet. But, for those of you that really need a cable running to it for some reason, an access point or wireless -> wired bridge would work just fine. And if you're worried about anyone on your network having access to the printer, or the network being overloaded, you can have a dedicated wifi router for only your printers. Or leave the wifi disconnected and the the PanelDue for controlling it. And, I assume the web interface has users and passwords similar to Octoprint where only authenticated users can initiate printer commands.

I'm excited for the new board and can't wait to try it. Then, I can move my wifi enabled OctoPi over to another printer.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Xenocrates »

Howler wrote:I personally think wifi is a great addition. I think they made the right choice here. Wifi is way more common than wired ethernet connections these days.

See, DC, you're not wrong. Most users do want wifi. I recognize this, and won't debate it. I think most users SHOULDN'T have wifi access, but that's not a battle I want to fight. It is my personal belief, born of my experience, that no machine should be wirelessly controlled. I work with industrial equipment a lot, and almost every piece of it can kill someone. A printer cannot kill someone easily, but it can cause property damage if it ignites, or serious burns if it is started without the knowledge of the people in the vicinity. It's not a feature I want, and it's a feature that I actively avoid in controllers and machines.
Howler wrote:I don't think you get any real tangible benefit from wired over wireless in something like this. Yes, you might get slightly faster transfer speeds, but almost a meg a second is pretty darn fast. If you're transferring 100 meg gcode files, and cant wait 2 minutes for that to complete, you're doing it wrong. Transferring is really the only time speed would matter. Otherwise, you are just checking the status of the print, etc. which would use very little bandwidth.

You get interference resistance out of wired connections. 3D printers are noisy RF environments. It's very hard to find one which isn't. You also get no faster speeds writing to the duet with wired connections. The connection method isn't the limit, it's write caching and SD card structures that limit it. You also get a physical connection you can check. Utilities installed air-gap interrupters on lines so they could be sure it was disconnected at a glance. Most machines feature a LOTO so that you can see it's disconnected. A wireless connection means you have little clue if anything is connected or not, just looking at the unit.

Howler wrote:I'm glad I don't have to dig out one of my WRT54G routers and convert them to a wired -> wifi bridge for the duet. But, for those of you that really need a cable running to it for some reason, an access point or wireless -> wired bridge would work just fine. And if you're worried about anyone on your network having access to the printer, or the network being overloaded, you can have a dedicated wifi router for only your printers. Or leave the wifi disconnected and the the PanelDue for controlling it. And, I assume the web interface has users and passwords similar to Octoprint where only authenticated users can initiate printer commands.

An overloaded network environment will only be hurt by adding another router. There are 3 channels on 2.4Ghz that are non-overlapping for wifi use. It is my experience that over ~15 devices you start suffering issues. The throughput to the printer being so low, it will be more resilient to noticeable degradation, as the connection is in theory a good bit faster than the write to the SD card. But in a convention center, apartment, factory, school, or hackerspace, there is sufficient RF noise that it will drop connections routinely. Thus why I expressed interest in an ethernet version, and thought that calling it a "Pro" model, as it could have other premium features like fused outputs, and external driver connections, would be appropriate. In professional environments, or for enthusiasts/Prosumers, Ethernet would be great. A daughterboard for either ethernet or wifi for that would be even better.

Howler wrote:I'm excited for the new board and can't wait to try it. Then, I can move my wifi enabled OctoPi over to another printer.


Also excited to see the new board. However, I have some opinions, which, legitimate or not, I wanted to voice so that DC42 knew people like me, bot, and brandon exist, and also to share my views on what I think would be ways to further improve a product I already think is pretty much class leading. I also realize that just about nothing I say here will make it to the NG board that will eventually be shipped. What I'm hoping for is that DC42 and the Duet team decide it's worthwhile to make another version of their excellent boards that better suits our minority of users.

But whatever happens, I want to make it clear that I think the Duet is currently the finest controller platform on the market, and that I appreciate what DC42 and the think3dprint3d team have done in pursuit of that quite a bit. I also hope they make plenty of money on their endeavors, and expand their user base. That's why I think that in general, much as I dislike it, WIFI is the right decision for their mainline board. It's what people want, and what they will pay for.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by CodonExe »

dc42 wrote:Some of you may already be aware that a new Duet is in the works. This is a joint design between Escher3D (basically me) and Think3DPrint3D. I am pleased to report that after several months of development, the prototypes are working well, and we have just commissioned a small run of pre-production boards to the same design. Some of these are already assigned to beta testers, but there are some left over. These will be offered for sale at a substantial discount compared to the production boards.

We haven't released the full specification yet. Most of the best improvements are not yet public, although a few details have been released at https://www.duet3d.com/.

I'll post again when we are ready to release the full specification and I can give a price and availability of the pre-production boards.

The Duet 0.8.5 will continue to be available as log as there is a demand for it.


Cant wait! I would love to buy a pre-production board.
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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Nylocke »

If the price is right and the money is around id be interested in trying one. The duet seems really promising and the smoothie devs/board arent quite on the same page as me.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by U.S. Water Rockets »

I too am underwhelmed by the addition of WiFi at the Exclusion of RJ45 Ethernet.

If MOST people have Wifi in their home, then all the more reason to use Ethernet because it will mean their PC doesn't have anything plugged into the Ethernet port.

I think a huge downside to WiFi is that people will put the printer in one room and the computer in another, and someone is going to send something to the printer while little Johnny has his hands in it trying to load filament or something. Ouch!

I'd gladly give up WiFi for a processor with more RAM or higher clock rate.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by IMBoring25 »

Whether the printer interfaces with the home network by wifi or Ethernet has zero impact on the ability to run the printer remotely. I run my Duet-driven Mendel off both wired and wireless clients, even clients that are attached to a second router daisy-chained to the one to which the printer is attached, on the other end of the house. The only impact the wired connection has to me is that I have to set up the printer somewhere within cable range of an Ethernet plug and where I don't mind having an Ethernet cable running.

If lock-out/tag-out is a major concern in your set-up, again, wifi vs. Ethernet interface makes no difference, and you should either be using passwords or configuring your network to disallow access from equipment you don't want issuing commands.

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by Great_Thark »

If it's going wifi will the wifi config be available from the due, I change my password regularly and having to plug it direct to the computer everytime would be a pita

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Re: Next generation Duet

Post by DeltaCon »

bot wrote:I agree, wifi is a downside to me. Huge downside. I may consider sticking with 0.8.5 if this is the final version.

That is exactly what I will do... WiFi is a nice option, but you don't want that on a device that is as critically controlled as a 3d printer. Hell, I don't even recommend it for 2d printers. Especially when people think they need a wifi printer for being able to print with their wifi laptop... WiFi is for equipment that you are walking around the house with, not for statically placed hardware like printers.

dc42 wrote:...a lot more home users have WiFi than have wired Ethernet other than in the room where the router is

M y guess is that the Duet is targeted at a "tech savvy" audience. I cannot imagine a lot of 3-d printer gurus that are able to built a printer around a duet themselves do not have a switch on their workbench. And if they don't they should...

dc42 wrote:Yes wired Ethernet can be faster than WiFi - but a 3D printer doesn't need a high speed connection.
That is of course true. But given the many problems using USB connections on the Rambo, it seems that the connection must be very steady. WiFi is just not that, especially with a AP or router on the other side of the house. I know, I deal with these problems on a daily basis.

dc42 wrote:I have used a WiFi to Ethernet adapter with a Duet in the past, and it's a pain. It has to be configured using a laptop computer, and even then I didn't always get it to work reliably

Is the new WiFi Duet fully configurable through the display? What if one would choose to not use a display, but the webinterface instead?

dc42 wrote:If there is enough demand then we could produce a wired Ethernet version of the new Duet.

That would be great of course!

You should have joined this forum earlier ;-)
But thanks for you work. It is still a great board and a great firmware. I am still in the market. Hopefully the prices of the 0.8.5 will drop a bit. So I can get my next upgrade planed. ;-)
Last edited by DeltaCon on Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
Rostock V2 / E3D Volcano / FSR kit / Duet 0.6

PS.: Sorry for the avatar, that's my other hobby!

dc42
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Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:17 am

Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

Great_Thark wrote:If it's going wifi will the wifi config be available from the due, I change my password regularly and having to plug it direct to the computer everytime would be a pita


The current plan is that you will only be able to change passwords by removing the SD card and putting it into a PC. But we're open to suggestions as long as they maintain security.

dc42
Printmaster!
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:17 am

Re: Next generation Duet

Post by dc42 »

We have allocated boards to our beta testers, and we will have some pre-production boards left over from the beta test programme. We are selling these at the heavily discounted price of £55 + carriage + VAT if applicable. In return, we hope to get useful feedback from you. We don't promise that these will be identical to the production boards, but we are guaranteeing firmware support for at least a year or money back (our option) in the unlikely event that we make an incompatible hardware change when we manufacture the production board. There are no such changes planned for the production board yet, just a few minor changes mostly to do with connector positioning.

If you are interested, please reply privately to me with your forum name, country and PayPal email address. We are restricting people to one board each. There is no commitment at this stage, and you will see the remaining board specifications before we require payment, First shipments will be about 2 weeks from now.

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