BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

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Jassper
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BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:24 pm

I've been working on a part cooling system. Seems to work good at testing and got a few things to figure out. But initially I'd like some feed back.
Basically I am pumping air into a small tube that encircles the nozzle and blows straight down onto the part.
One issue I have with using fans, hanging from the extruder is that the air is also blowing across the nozzel and the molten plastic just as it exits the nozzle. This i feel causes poor layer adhesion. So to compensate I must turn my temp up even higher which in turn causes other issues. I feel the air need to be directed to the part right after the plastic is laid down.

Here are some initial photos, both on a Cartesian and a Delta.

Image
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Image
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Additional Pictures on the MakerHive facebook and twitter page https://twitter.com/TheMakerHive
I've had very good results from this, however one thing I am still working on is large over hangs still need additional cooling. I will post some "with" and "without" pictures, and some videos soon. Stay tuned!
Last edited by Jassper on Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Tincho85 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:22 pm

That's actually very clever. I likeeee it!!

What pumps are you using?
Do they make a lot of noise like the aquarium ones?
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:37 pm

Tincho85 wrote:That's actually very clever. I likeeee it!!

What pumps are you using?
Do they make a lot of noise like the aquarium ones?


These are used pumps from MPJA http://www.mpja.com/12VDC-Mini-Air-Pump ... 18831%20MI
They are fairly quiet, but since they are used takeouts, some are louder than others. But I am experimenting with regulating down CO2 canisters or compressed air cans from Paint Ball guns.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby bvandiepenbos » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:49 pm

The pumps are small and very quite.
This part cooling setup works surprisingly well, I have seen it in action. wow.
Super compact and NO air blowing on heater block/nozzle is a really good thing.

Larger pump/more air is probably all that is needed to handle larger prints and more overhangs.
Maybe a refillable compressed air tank so it is silent and portable.?
So type of air regulator and 12v solenoid to control from gcode, just like fans are now.

what cartridges do paintball guns use?

Even a small high pressure tank should last a long time, if regulated to low volume needed for part cooling.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby ccavanaugh » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:20 pm

Some controller boards may be able to control a small 5V pneumatic solenoid to conserve the compressed air. If current draw is too much, small 2A solid state relay break-out boards can be had inexpensively.

If you don't mind the buzz, a small compressor for an airbrush might do the trick also.

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby briankb » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:47 pm

That is a great idea!

Have you tried a version where the air holes are more along the side, maybe 45 degree instead of straight down or on the edge.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Captain Starfish » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:54 pm

Hmmm

Thoughts and experience on using cans of compressed gas.

I have a shop compressor in the shed, as well as a breathing air compressor for filling SCUBA tanks. Both are very noisy.

Sometimes (ie nearly always) I can't be bothered dragging out the airline for the shop air and putting it away again so I grab a regulator rig I slapped together ages ago and put it on a full SCUBA tank as my air source. Even though it's a big (95c.f.) tank, you'd be surprised just how quickly it empties when I'm using the air duster to clean up. Those little paintball canisters are tiny compared to a SCUBA tank, I doubt they'd last more than an hour tops even at the fairly minimal kind of flow rates you want for cooling. And then you have to fill them to re-use, said fill is to something like 3000psi which isn't going to happen with a normal shop compressor. So off to the dive shop you go, to pay $6 for a fill of your tiny little canister to try again.

Much, much better off with a small compressor. If these little 2lpm units are getting the job done then they look about perfect. If they're too noisy, print a box for them, and line it with two densities of foam rubber to quiet things down a bit.

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:52 pm

Thanks for all the Feedback!

@brianKB Perhaps a 30 degree might be OK. The main thing is keeping the air off the point where the material comes out of the nozzle. I have several test prints where the air was blowing more towards the nozzle point. When removing the part from the bed I would have layer separation. After adjusting the air away from the point, no more separation without adjusting the temperature.

@ Captian Starfish Thanks for the info about the Tanks!
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby mhackney » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:47 am

Jassper and all,

I started working on a similar concept late last year (I think I posted something about it in my build thread or elsewhere here) and went down the path of bent tubing. Now I am working on a simple version that can be made in 2 parts so no tube bending is needed. Here's the STL for the nozzle ring:

Cooling Ring.stl
(224.4 KiB) Downloaded 176 times


I attempted to bend tubing but could not get a tight enough radius to encircle the nozzle closely. The machined part allows me to almost snug it up against the nozzle so the air flow is exactly where you want it. I can drill the holes at an angle to direct the airflow right at the tip (you can do that with the bent tube also). Another option I am exploring is making these out of an insulating material and actually pressing it around the nozzle. This has the advantage of insulating the nozzle itself from the cool air and getting the air flow very close to where it is needed on the part.

For air, there are some very inexpensive 12V air pumps used to aerate bait tanks on fishing boats. They are small and put out a surprising amount of air. AND, they can be controlled via the FSRs to control the air volume. This is the one I use but there are other less expensive units available. I had this one from another project (CNC milling machine mist cooler I built).

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby stonewater » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:15 am

I think the guano fan holder style fan would work for this, just a matter of changing its mounting location, not sure why we need a pump. I understand backpressure that could be controlled with hole size and the waste gate on the back side of the nozzle

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby mhackney » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:21 am

I did my initial experiments with the same fan that SeeMeCNC sells (the one that goes in the Guano holder). It is designed for large volume air flow and does not have enough pressure to get sufficient air flow. Air pumps are designed explicitly for pressure. A $10 pump is not much more than a fan and it works. The pump the OP points to is more than enough to work. These are the air pumps used in Kuerig coffee makers. I have a couple of these I intend to use on other printers.

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby EL Cuajinais » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:46 am

So are you all in agreement with the OP’s assessment that fans negatively impacts layer adhesion? It does make sense. I ask because I’ve been considering purchasing two additional radial fans (the stock ones) to have three fans, one on each triangle corner of the effector. Is this a bad idea?

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby mhackney » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:48 am


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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby teoman » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:33 pm

I also have a bit of experience with scuba diving.

If you already have the tanks etc and dive regularly, it can be done. With a small needle valve you can adjust the flowrate.

A normal scuba tank holds about 2000l of air. My biggest tank holds 4000 and my twinset holds 7200 liter of air.

The pump claims to be rated at 2l/minute.
So 1000 - 2000 and 7200 hours of print time depending on which tank or tanks i use.

Ps anything but the small ome is not fun to haul around.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby teoman » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Here is a picture of the large tank, it has a water capacity of 20L, when pumped up to 200bars that makes 4000L of air. I put a stepper motor on the floor for size comparison.

What would be awesome is, if you made a small adapter on the bowden tube close to the nozzle and some kind of seal or gasket on top for the filament and then used the bowden tube to transfer down the air.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:27 am

EL Cuajinais wrote:So are you all in agreement with the OP’s assessment that fans negatively impacts layer adhesion? It does make sense. I ask because I’ve been considering purchasing two additional radial fans (the stock ones) to have three fans, one on each triangle corner of the effector. Is this a bad idea?


Fans are needed, yes - but there is a point that you can have too much cooling and negatively effect your part. From my experience, the only thing you need a lot of cooling for is heavy over hangs and bridging. Here is a good example, In this picture you can see that the boat on the right has a messed up bow, the one on the left is perfect. I used my BerdAir on both, however that overhang of the bow is just a bit too much and not enough air flow to cool if properly. To correct it all I added for the print on the left is a 20mm fan sitting on the edge of the build plate pointing at the bow. Not much air and you could barley feel it, but just enough.
Image

Heat can escape the plastic at a certain rate of speed (depending on the material), so you can remove it only so fast. And there is a point when removing the heat becomes too fast. While I agree that some form of part cooling is needed, going Tool Time on the cooling isn't always a good thing.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:36 pm

This system does a nice job of keeping those edges crisp and clean. Here is a side by side comparison.
Image

Sorry for the Long delay - I needed to source a good pump for a reasonable price. I now have a Kit up on the MakerHive store as a PRE-ORDER only. I expect to ship by Jan 30th if not sooner.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby DanWake » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:11 pm

I've been testing this system on my Graber i3 for several months now and love the results. Bridging has never been better (50mm test without any issues whatsoever) and my prints have been much cleaner. I'd still suggest a normal fan for large overhangs, but this has definitely worked well for me.

To help connect it to the E3D fan shroud, I designed this clip that I have attached with double-stick tape (carpet tape) and a zip tie. The metal tube snaps right into the two hooks so you can adjust the angle and height easily. http://repables.com/r/708/

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:22 pm

Here is a video highlighting some tips on how to bend and cut the tubing so you can adapt it to your specific printer.

https://youtu.be/oJPRmSepvBI


And here is a very nice little pump that will move a lot of air.
O2 Commercial Air Pump
It is quiet and could be use to provide air to several cooling tubes.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby bvandiepenbos » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:53 pm

Thanks for the video Jassper, great tips, I learned some new tricks.
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:27 am

Playing with some side pipe ideas.
I'll start with it in this position and move it inward as needed checking the results each time. This I think will help with larger overhangs.
Even though this looks far away from the nozzle, I get considerable air flow just below the nozzle tip.
Image

(Look like it's time for a new nozzle or at least soak this one in acetone for a few days)
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby duvdev » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:34 am

got mine today.
will be installed later today.

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Jassper » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:08 pm

Pump mounts can be found here
http://repables.com/r/720/
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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby AlanZ » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:48 pm

I ordered mine today. Let's see how it does on an E3D v6

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Re: BerdAir comeing soon From Yellow Jacket Concepts

Postby Windshadow » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:10 am

Thanks for the mount print link, its interesting that it seems to hold 3 of your air pumps would it not be better to get a larger pump and then use an adjustable manifold as used in aquariums to adjust air to various features if we add more of your needle dispensers? or is there something special about the pumps you have selected for your device the requires one pump per device?


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