I'm back and wanting to upgrade

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Chrissi
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I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:40 am

Hi all, I'm back. My V1 has been idle for much of this time but I've seen that there are changes out there. Part of the idleness is the steep learning curve vs results. I spent a good amount of time fussing with the printer for a year and due to being quite busy had to move on to other things. While I could get okay results I was never impressed but it just seemed every time I needed to print something useful I would spend three hours trying to get an adequate calibration. So thoughts of printing something usually were terminated, I'd rather write code for the mill and machine it.
I did buy an E3DV6 hot end with the intention of installing it but in light of ongoing calibration issues it would have been lipstick on a pig.
/end bitchfest
My interest and intention is to be able to print both high quality enclosures for an electronic product but also investment casting patterns and possibly sand casting patterns. I see amazing results people are getting these days, I'd hate to think my V1 is beyond upgrading to this level.
Way back then I was interested in the Smoothi board, mainly to get rid of the annoying facets created by the control board. I understand the new Duet2 WiFi 1.04 is the best board available now and it can handle two hot ends and will do automatic calibration to end my startup woes?

My thoughts are to change the following:
-Duet2 WiFi 1.04
-Paneldue 7i display
-Duet Delta Smart Effector mount with mag balls, lights, touch sensing
-E3DV6 hot end
-Magball arms
-0.9 deg steppers
-possibly add the plexiglass sides to kill drafts

!. will the power supply handle this or do I need to add a separate one for the bed which is already painfully slow?
2. Will the power supply handle the hot end and display if using a separate power supply for the bed?
3. I'd like a better solution for the extruder but the Nimble unit does not seem to be available and may still have issues with the somewhat thin Duet hot end mount.
4. If not the Nimble, what works best now?
5. If I have to replace the steppers and control board it sounds like I am going to have the entire unit in pieces?
6. Does the Duet control board actually print a true radius or just smaller facets? Why not a true G02 or G03?
7. Another can o worms, what would be the best slicer to run with this board?
8. Also Duet does not make a dual hot end version of it's Delta Smart Effector, so if I wanted to have the same sort of auto calibration plus a second hot end for support material is there something else out there just as accurate?
...Chrissi

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geneb
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by geneb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:47 am

The jump from the v1 to the v3.2+ is pretty dramatic.

Instead of mag ball arms, I'd suggest going with the injection molded carriage set and the ball & cup arms. Same performance and you don't have to worry about the arms falling off. :) The carriages are plug & play - no adjustments to make them ride properly.

You might want to look at just getting an upgrade kit from SeeMeCNC that includes the SE300 hot end & effector. It uses the same sensing technology that the Duet smart effector mount does. Contact support and see what exactly they'd recommend for going from v1 to (basically) a v3.2.

As to the power supply, I'd get a dedicated single rail power supply. Most can be tweaked up to 15v to speed up the bed heating.

Slicing can be done with Cura and SeeMeCNC has a pile of tuned profiles for various materials.

I should note that unless there's some specific need for ABS, PETG or PLA is going to be a better choice. Without an actual heated enclosure, ABS just isn't worth the hassle - hell even WITH a heated enclosure, ABS isn't worth the hassle. :)

g.
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:47 am

Thanks Gene for the input, I'll have to look at the suggestions and I am sure I will have questions.
I had settled on ABS back then because I thought it was going to be durable, heck they make LEGOS out of it. I imagine LEGOS will be crippling adults for centuries to come.
At the time PLA was the only alternative but PLA is also biodegradeable and not "durable goods" in that it would eventually start breaking down from heat cycling and UV exposure. I need something that would be okay in a vehicle.
Yes, ABS is a huge PITA, it's the only thing I have tried to work with.

The idea of the mag arms falling off is a "feature"! =) ...seriously, One of our other projects is a huge CNC plasma cutter, at the time it did not have a break away torch holder and when a cut piece of steel tilted up on the bed it broke the industrial torch body in half! We now have a magnetic break away torch holder.

I'll have to look up characteristics of alternative filaments to ABS.
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:18 pm

I think I have the power supply issue taken care of; I forgot we have an Astron VS Linear power supply we used for anodizing, it is 2-15VDC, adjustable up to 57A cont. What should we fuse the printer at?
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:23 pm

When switching to the 0.9deg steppers, do the original pulleys get used?
Also, since the motors would be coming out, other than sound damping, do the 3rd party stepper mount pads help anything else?
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Mac The Knife » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:01 pm

When using the Duet board, you would not need sound dampening,,,,, nor would you want to anyways since it would effect the print. You would set the Duet drivers to run in Interpolated mode, which makes them quieter.

Also, I just checked, the Duet 2 will run G02 and G03 codes,,,, it would be up to the slicing program to output those codes.
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Chrissi
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:48 am

Mac The Knife wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:01 pm
When using the Duet board, you would not need sound dampening,,,,, nor would you want to anyways since it would effect the print. You would set the Duet drivers to run in Interpolated mode, which makes them quieter.

Also, I just checked, the Duet 2 will run G02 and G03 codes,,,, it would be up to the slicing program to output those codes.
Thank you! Info I needed. Does Cura generate G02, 3 moves?
Personally, stepper noise is music to my ears.
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by geneb » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:35 am

You'd have to contact Ultimaker about the G02/03 moves, but if it doesn't, I wouldn't call that an issue.

You can fuse for a couple of amps higher than the Duet is fused for, I suppose.

You'll continue to use the same drive gears with the 0.9 steppers.

Printing with ABS is basically 3d printing on "hard mode". Yes, PLA is biodegradable, but only in industrial settings - it's not going to crumble away on it's own. The simplest way to protect PLA is to paint it - which you'll have to do with ABS anyway as none of it (as far as I know) is made with UV stabilizers. If you want to avoid PLA at all costs, I'd recommend you get yourself a roll of PETG from Atomic Filament and experiment with it.

g.
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:48 am

geneb wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:35 am
You'd have to contact Ultimaker about the G02/03 moves, but if it doesn't, I wouldn't call that an issue.

You can fuse for a couple of amps higher than the Duet is fused for, I suppose.

You'll continue to use the same drive gears with the 0.9 steppers.

Printing with ABS is basically 3d printing on "hard mode". Yes, PLA is biodegradable, but only in industrial settings - it's not going to crumble away on it's own. The simplest way to protect PLA is to paint it - which you'll have to do with ABS anyway as none of it (as far as I know) is made with UV stabilizers. If you want to avoid PLA at all costs, I'd recommend you get yourself a roll of PETG from Atomic Filament and experiment with it.

g.
Thanks Gene,
I have no dislike for any filament, I'll use whatever works best. "Biodegradable" did not sound like an attribute I wanted =)

Waiting on a confirmation from SeeMeCNC that the parts will work and that they have stock, though with the announcement of Rostock MAX v4 I am afraid of missing some fundamental new tech; I ordered our V1 and about a week after we received it they put V2 on the market =(

It's a shame they did not include lighting LEDs in the SE300 head/effector assembly.

I see the heated bed is a different model and also mounted differently? Is this something to consider?

Looking at the print examples on the SeeMeCNC FB group I am most impressed, would an upgraded V1 be capable of that kind of quality?

Also what kind of filament are they using to obtain those results?
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by geneb » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:13 am

Chrissi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:48 am
geneb wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:35 am
You'd have to contact Ultimaker about the G02/03 moves, but if it doesn't, I wouldn't call that an issue.

You can fuse for a couple of amps higher than the Duet is fused for, I suppose.

You'll continue to use the same drive gears with the 0.9 steppers.

Printing with ABS is basically 3d printing on "hard mode". Yes, PLA is biodegradable, but only in industrial settings - it's not going to crumble away on it's own. The simplest way to protect PLA is to paint it - which you'll have to do with ABS anyway as none of it (as far as I know) is made with UV stabilizers. If you want to avoid PLA at all costs, I'd recommend you get yourself a roll of PETG from Atomic Filament and experiment with it.

g.
Thanks Gene,
I have no dislike for any filament, I'll use whatever works best. "Biodegradable" did not sound like an attribute I wanted =)
I found this and it's an interesting read, especially the linked PDF files in the comments on the article: https://www.filabot.com/blogs/news/5723 ... ity-of-pla
Waiting on a confirmation from SeeMeCNC that the parts will work and that they have stock, though with the announcement of Rostock MAX v4 I am afraid of missing some fundamental new tech; I ordered our V1 and about a week after we received it they put V2 on the market =(
I can be done - it just won't look pretty. ;)
The v4 has replaced all the "traditional" Melamine parts with steel and comes with an AC powered heated bed, which is important if you want to print ABS. It's the same bed heater as the Artemis 300 and can hit 100C in around 10 minutes.
It's a shame they did not include lighting LEDs in the SE300 head/effector assembly.
There are white LEDs on the PCB, they're just not the broad lighting that most folks are used to with the LED rings.
I see the heated bed is a different model and also mounted differently? Is this something to consider?

Looking at the print examples on the SeeMeCNC FB group I am most impressed, would an upgraded V1 be capable of that kind of quality?

Also what kind of filament are they using to obtain those results?
As I mentioned above, the v4 uses an AC heater - there's a solid state relay in the base that allows the Duet to control the bed.

The v1 can do the quality if you update the motion system to the v3.2/v4 configuration. This means going to 0.9 steppers, injection molded carriages, ball cup arms and a Duet WiFi controller. You'll also want the SE300 in order to take advantage of the nearly magical auto-calibration that the Duet can do. :) You can't upgrade the bed to the AC style though - you don't want that kind of power output potential that close to wood.

I would suspect that the vast majority of the images you're looking at are either PLA or PETG.

If you really want to print in ABS, I'd recommend going with an Artemis 300 or a v4 and stick it in an enclosure of some kind.

g.
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:01 am

Thanks Gene, good stuff. And doable.
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:02 pm

Is there much merit to changing the extruder stepper to the 0.9 deg motor?
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by geneb » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:08 pm

Definitely maybe. ;)

I don't know to be honest. Is your v1 of such a vintage that it's got the enormous geared Steve's Extruder?

g.
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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by Chrissi » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:24 pm

Not sure, I don't think so, it was shipped about a week before they released the V2 MAX.

Unrelated, I'm wondering if it would be good to add a postscript to the g-code that when it is done printing that is retracts the filament about an inch or so to clear the hot end and make it easier to remove the filament? Sometimes it sits long enough that the pressure on the extruder pinch wheel squashes the filament a bit.
...Chrissi

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Re: I'm back and wanting to upgrade

Post by geneb » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:36 am

I've left filament parked in a cold hot end for months at a time with no ill effects. Then again, I don't print ABS at all. If retracting works for you, run with it. :)

g.
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