Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

DarrenAnton
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Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby DarrenAnton » Sun May 01, 2016 12:01 pm

Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Okay all you Max Metal builders what controller cards are you guys using SmoothieBoard or the Duet Controller v0.8.5 ?

I have a smoothie board now with this LCD listed here (12864 LCD)
http://www.makergeeks.com/xtsm12lcdra1.html

I did not get the RepRapDiscount Full Graphic Smart Controller
http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRapDiscount_F ... Controller

I tried to save some money maybe that was a mistake?

But I'm finding it to be a real pain in the butt
getting that thing wired up correctly was a real pain you can't use the cables it comes with. And even at that I'm not sure I got set up right because it doesn't function correctly
I have tried playing with the configuration file but the problem is when you turn the knob one notch it moves the line down two lines instead of one line you gotta move that thing very carefully and the knob seems backwards

So ok maybe Vicki 2 for my SmoothieBoard?
http://www.panucatt.com/product_p/vikilcd2.htm

But $75 for a small screen and is not even a touch screen? Does anybody make a touchscreen LCD for the smoothie board? You would think we would have one by now?

Or is it worthwhile to get rid of the smoothie board and go with
Duet Controller v0.8.5 with PanelDue 7"LCD
http://www.filastruder.com/products/pan ... 4af81fca3c

I'm also having a lot of problems running simplify 3D on the smoothie board. I've read a lot of comments on line that the smoothie board just does not like simplify 3D. I don't know who's at fault. Is it the smoothie board or simplify 3D?

Basically I'm just looking for comments on all you guys with a Max Metal builds what controller do you like better and what LCD screen do you like better


I'm not rich by any means however money is no issue provided you just plug the thing in and it just works without taking a two-year college degree on how to set it up

thanks for all your feedback I appreciate it!

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby Xenocrates » Sun May 01, 2016 2:25 pm

You should be able to reverse the knob direction and adjust sensitivity (I don't use smoothieboard, so I'm not certain as to what precisely needs adjusted). I think

panel.encoder_resolution should alter the line numbers. In theory, smaller number is less lines (I think. Test yourself, the documentation isn't clear)

and that panel.encoder_a_pin and panel.encoder_b_pin should be reversed to reverse the direction it turns. Not clear at all on this mind you. 626pilot could probably help better.

Many people really like Duet, and the segment-less calculation and auto-calibration produce really high quality parts, with a very involved dev (dc42 on these forums). I like it personally (Although I haven't bought one yet) as it has support for both PT100's and thermocouples. From what I understand, setup is fairly easy, and there are instructions in detail on the forums, with people such as Mhackney who will help debug it with you.

The Simplify3D and smoothie mess is mostly Simplify3D's fault. They do not have a post-processor on their slicer to catch duplicate moves, nor a minimum move length setting (or at least not a sane and exposed default). Smoothieware implements look-ahead (path planning), which is a very useful feature. However, simplify3d's garbage code (The duplicated lines, not the whole thing, although I'm sure other's are less charitable about such brain-dead behavior from a slicer) hits a bug in the interaction between the path-planning and the step generation somehow (Or something), and causes the whole machine to hang. Smoothieware is working on a fix, mostly by tearing out most of the path planning/step generation code a re-writing it.

Being a machinist with access to CNC machines, I don't like touch-screens much. I prefer physical buttons. I do realize that Duet is one of the few ways to get a colorful display easily, which I appreciate, spending several hours at a time staring at monochrome CRT's (Orange on black mostly), and that the paneldue is aimed at touch interface. I also appreciate the remote management features of the Duet (Ethernet for the win).
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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby JFettig » Sun May 01, 2016 3:19 pm

Smoothieboard does a very poor job of motion control, while it seems like its doing a good job its cutting corners, firmware is incomplete and it can't handle high rates of code. Its Equally or more Smoothie's problem than it is S3D, S3D code will run just fine on every other piece of hardware out there. Its just a personal vendetta of Arthurs against non-open source S3d.

I ended up going with a Repetier firmware supported RADDS board, I would have gone with a Duet if I had choices in drivers and lcds, I do not like touch screens.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby DarrenAnton » Sun May 01, 2016 5:34 pm

[quote="Xenocrates"]You should be able to reverse the knob direction and adjust sensitivity (I don't use smoothieboard, so I'm not certain as to what precisely needs adjusted). I think

Thanks! I will re look at it I did do a fimeware update a few weeks back, maybe it will work better then last time I worded with it

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby DarrenAnton » Sun May 01, 2016 5:38 pm

Thanks! I did a search on that RADDS board, The wiki page seems to have some issues with it however you find that board to be good?

http://reprap.org/wiki/RADDS

JFettig wrote:Smoothieboard does a very poor job of motion control, while it seems like its doing a good job its cutting corners, firmware is incomplete and it can't handle high rates of code. Its Equally or more Smoothie's problem than it is S3D, S3D code will run just fine on every other piece of hardware out there. Its just a personal vendetta of Arthurs against non-open source S3d.

I ended up going with a Repetier firmware supported RADDS board, I would have gone with a Duet if I had choices in drivers and lcds, I do not like touch screens.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby DarrenAnton » Sun May 01, 2016 6:23 pm

[quote="DarrenAnton"]Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds


Strictly for the benefit of helping others out reading this post I did fix my LCD screen problems by changing the panel encoder resolution to 4. Back when I was working with it it was 2 I made it 1 seem to be not as bad but 1 was moving it 4 lines now. when I played with this a few months ago I was having a hell of a time but I did do a flash update a few weeks back maybe that had something to do with it I don't know. Normally I follow the school of thought if it ant broke don't fix it but my case I was having so many problems I decided to try to flashing it anyway. Maybe that's solved the problem? Flipping the panel.encoder_a_pin and b_pin lines did fix that turning the wrong way problem this time in the past that didn't work unless I did something wrong back then.

Thanks Xenocrates for the info, made me revisit the case!

As far as Smoothieware & Simplify3D maybe I will rent them a conference room and they can work out their differences or is that wishful thinking? haha

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby mhackney » Sun May 01, 2016 7:29 pm

Not even a contest, Duet on my MaxMetal and ALL of my delta printers. I've written extensively on the advantages just search my Duet posts for the details.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby mhackney » Sun May 01, 2016 7:33 pm

Theres a thread on the google delta group going on right now about RADDS. The poster had his RADDS fry at the start of a print and now he can't find a replacement from anywhere.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 01, 2016 7:49 pm

I have only used Duet beyond the stock RoStock board. I have not used SmoothieBoard.

The Duet has been easy to use and intuitive. I love the LCD and web interface which are easy and intuitive as well.

By switching to the Duet I have learned a tremendous amount about the set up, the config.g and other files and print .gcode files. I have learned a ton on Duet and I feel that speaks volumes for Duet. Prints are much better as an aside.

Importantly, if you want a board that works for you, in my opinion, Duet is your solution. You can dig in and learn more or use the basic set up to improve your prints.
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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby Windshadow » Sun May 01, 2016 10:19 pm

My problem is that i have my v2 doing what i need it to do (Mostly I use it to print pieces that let me mount oddly shaped castings of Iron and bronze and Al into the kurt vise on my Bridgeport for milling) and the thought of taking it all apart to fit the duet and the DC42 software and then have to start over what I spent most of January and February learning how to make my printer do what I wanted it to do... well its a bit daunting...

my current plan is that as soon as SeeMeCNC ships the motion sensing auto calibrate upgrade that will be my time to do the teardown and go for it... I know I could do it now with the Mhackney FSR how to guides here and at his blog. but loyalty to SeeMeCNC has me wanting to incorporate their sensor system/

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby dc42 » Sat May 21, 2016 4:02 am

Xenocrates wrote:Being a machinist with access to CNC machines, I don't like touch-screens much. I prefer physical buttons.


The PanelDue design allows for the addition of a rotary encoder with push button, and the version 1 PCBs even had the pads to solder the encoder on the board. The version 1.1 PCB is smaller and to achieve this I had to remove the mounting pads for the encoder, however the pads to connect it are still there. So all it needs to support a rotary encoder as well as touch screen is a little extra firmware. I'll gladly give some advice on how to do this. If there is enough demand, I'll write it myself.

Bear in mind that the touch screen on PanelDue is resistive, not capacitive as on smartphones, so it's best operated using the tip of your fingernail rather than the pad of your finger.

According to Arthur's comment at https://github.com/dc42/PanelDue/issues ... -219382927, support for PanelDue in a version of Smoothieware should be available soon.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby 626Pilot » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:33 am

I did a pretty thorough write-up on my impressions of Duet and Smoothie, which you can read here.

I initially liked the Duet, and I got it with the external driver board so that I could run enough steppers to set up a Diamond hot end. I came back to Smoothie land after about a month because of the following:

  • dc42's geometry calibration is very good - at least as good as mine - but it lacked a working Z-based depth correction. There was supposedly some capability to do this, but I couldn't find enough documentation to get it working. dc42's calibration did help, but it didn't give a flat 1st layer across the entirety of the build platform. Ultimately, this is what killed it for me. With my firmware on Smoothie, the whole bed is flat.
  • Hot end power connector is tiny and flimsy, to the point that I wondered if it would shear off the board just from having the screws tightened. (I understand this was fixed with the newer DuetWiFi board, but haven't checked.)
  • Duet's "let's use G-code and files for everything" is annoying. Upgrading Smoothie to the next rev is a single command. Upgrading Duet involves replacing a bunch of files, some of which may require porting your settings over from the old ones.
  • Duet also puts all the probing coordinates into a file. The file holds fewer probe points than my firmware can do, and you have to generate those points yourself using a web page. My firmware generates them on demand, by itself.
  • Duet's depth-based Z correction may be working at this point - I don't know - but if it is, it's working from fewer probing points than mine is, meaning that you're more likely to get bumpiness in the depth correction than you would with my firmware.
  • Smoothie's source code is organized beautifully. Everything is in a well-nested directory structure, making it easy to find things. Duet's source code is the typical rat's nest encouraged by the Arduino IDE. (I'm criticizing the Arduino devs on that, not the Duet devs.) Too many things are crammed into one file, making it necessary to spend more energy finding where something is.
  • Smoothie is designed to be a general-purpose CNC controller that happens to speak RepRap G-code flavor, and which also happens to have both onboard stepper drivers, and pins that you can use to bypass them with beefier external drivers. The firmware is adaptable to more machine types (overhead delta, SCARA, etc.), as well as non-printing things like laser cutters. I think they're going to implement rotatable blades that follow the direction of motion, so they can be used with vinyl cutters as well. Duet is more specific to 3D printers. For most people, this is a non-issue. If you're running a shop with CNC machines that aren't all 3D printers, Smoothie lets you run everything on the same platform.
Long story short, I'm unlikely to abandon the Smoothie platform anytime soon. I'm just too invested in it, and I like the way they do things a lot better.

Now, here is what I did like about the Duet:

  • The web interface is head and shoulders above Smoothie's. It looks really nice. Smoothie's is very basic, the sort of thing you'd cobble together in a couple afternoons. (Unfortunately, the file-based way they do this makes upgrades more of a headache.)
  • The PanelDue is REALLY nice. I have one, and used it with my Duet. Smoothie is going to get PanelDue support "soon" (there's already a repository for it) but it isn't in the main branch just yet. The Due has dedicated connectors for this. On the Smoothieboard and clones, you'd have to refer to some wiring diagram to figure out how to hook it up.
  • Duet has a really nice expansion header with tons of pins. Smoothieboards have very few pins dedicated to expansion, and they are spread out.
  • Duet has an expansion board with four more stepper drivers. You can run CRAZY stuff with that. I got it because I wanted to run a Diamond hot end, but never got quite that far before going back to Smoothie. The Smoothieboard 2 has more drivers built in - certainly more than enough for a Diamond - but it isn't out yet.
  • One of the Smoothie devs has a reputation for being somewhat cranky. To be fair, he has contributed a ton of open source work, and when he isn't cranky, he can be immensely helpful. Smoothie would not be where it is without his many contributions. That said, to my knowledge, none of the Duet devs has that particular personality trait - or if they do, they're good at hiding it. :)

I have one MAX METAL, and the frame of another. I've done a bunch of mods for the MAX METAL, including a flying triple extruder platform and counterweight system to make it work properly, and there are more on the way. My operating environment is Smoothie (obviously), which is connected to a Raspberry Pi 3 running OctoPrint. Since I couldn't get Smoothie or Duet to accept g-code files faster than 20KB/sec, their respective web interfaces and panels are useless to me. OctoPrint is a real life saver here.

dc42, author of the Duet delta calibration, and Arthur, who is one of the maintainers of Smoothieware, both post on these forums. They have both been courteous and very helpful to our members. Someone is actually porting dc42's autocalibration over to Smoothie, but it lacks Z-based depth correction and uses the same smaller number of probing points. I'd like to see it with as many probing points as mine, if not more, and it obviously needs depth-mapped Z correction to be useful to the greatest number of people.

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby Xenocrates » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:54 am

I'd like to point some things out that I believe you've overlooked pilot (many either aren't widely used, or changed since you switched back over).

Duet supports laser cutting, as well as CNC machining (After all, if they were printer only, why would there be Roland mill support?). There's not a large volume of documentation on that out there, but if one goes looking, there's enough for it to work (The duet supports PWM scaling on fan 0 while extrusion is happening according to a parameter passed via M571). I'm sure that if you asked for documentation, DC42 would do his usual bang up job on that (I swear, I ask him for a bit of information, and he goes and puts something very professional together. PT100 wiring diagram, chamber heater hookup page (I don't think he had quite announced that wiki before he linked me to the page on it I wanted))

The duet upgrade is getting to be really simple now. If you want to upgrade the firmware, open the web control, upload the .bin, and tell the board that yes, you do want to update. Same with the web control, or wifi firmware

The duet now has 2A stepper drivers, and they think they can go higher if the thermals look good. Not to mention that they plan on making a breakout board that will support higher amperage's (And you could just connect straight to the appropriate pins on the expansion header), and remap any drivers you want.

They are increasing the number of expansion pins, and potentially external drivers as well. they're already planning a 5X board, and potentially even further chaining, as well as a potentially a CNC oriented breakout/expansion board that would be aimed more directly at mills/lasers

Few people find a need to use all 16 points that the Duet supports for probing. And having it be file based means you can have one build of firmware that all your printers use, even if you've upgraded a Taz 6, a Bucaneer, and a Rostock Max. I'm not certain I like having all the parameters of a machine be open for a program to change, nor that I like doing it all in G code yet, but I can definitely see the appeal of file based configurations.

and as noted elsewhere, the hotend power connector has been changed to be sturdier on the Duet wifi.
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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby bot » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:40 pm

Yeah, it's funny timing for 626 to come and start ranting about his dated experience with a last-generation product. I wonder if the smoothie camp is getting their haunches up over the popularity of the duet ecosystem, and they sent their ambassador to clear the mud. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby 626Pilot » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:56 am

bot wrote:Yeah, it's funny timing for 626 to come and start ranting about his dated experience with a last-generation product. I wonder if the smoothie camp is getting their haunches up over the popularity of the duet ecosystem, and they sent their ambassador to clear the mud. :roll: :lol:

How have you not been banned yet? This is the second time you've engaged in a personal attack against me, and I'm not even the only user who you've done this to. You are the ONLY person I've seen doing this in THREE YEARS on this forum and we all wish you'd grow up.

A few days ago, I pointed out that one of Smoothie's star contributors is brash. That is hardly the kind of behavior a reasonable person would expect from an "ambassador." Indeed, dc42 and I have had hours of friendly conversation over our respective firmware mods. He and I find no reason to fight, so what's your problem?

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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby bot » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:05 pm

I think you interpret my words much harsher than they are intended to be...

I guess my haunches up comment was pretty accurate. I'm sorry if you were offended. I don't think ambassador is really a dirty word.
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Re: Lets talk Duet Controller v0.8.5 VS SmoothieBoard and LCD Screens On Max Metal Builds

Postby 626Pilot » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:25 pm

If you didn't mean it that way, then I'm okay with it.


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