Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

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bruceg
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Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by bruceg » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:40 pm

First would like to thank everyone involved with this most excellent forum. After a year of finding within a solution to every problem, i finally have a question; Is my expectation that Spiral Vase Mode, after the first layer, should produce a continuous helical path in one direction correct?

The application is as follows:
Rostock Max v2, Repetier 091, Matter Control 1.5.3 Build 1.5.3.6876 (current beta), Autodesk 123D Design 2.1.11
STL Models: 35.5mm dia x 20mm height x 1mm and 0.7mm wall thickness cylinders. Extrusion width and nozzle dia 0.7mm

Having trouble getting a continuous extrusion path using Spiral Vase Mode. Have tried both MatterSlice and Cura but only get a few circuits before either a direction change (Cura) or a re-positioning (MatterSlice). Have not tried any other slicers yet and have just been working within MatterControl.

MatterSlice does not seem to generate an obvious pattern along the height of the cylinder, sometimes executing 5 or more continuous circuits, sometimes having several layers with path re-positionings (i.e. the seams typically produced with spiral vase mode disabled) at the same or different locations around the circumference and sometimes backtracking (even Z height upon examination of the gcode).

In layer view, the layer number is the overall height divided by the layer height (despite the gcode showing ~ 1/100 of layer height increments) for MatterControl whereas Cura produced an expected (i believe) high number of layers. Changing perimeter count and retraction settings (including no retraction) does not seem to affect extrusion path.

I am trying to print a watertight thin walled tube in NinjaFlex. Overall the layer adhesion is great but the direction changes and path re-postioning are leaving tiny holes. Retraction departure and arrival points are fine for adhesion although there is some blobbing. I think this is in part due to a fair bit of filament "wind-up" within the bowden tube (stock cold end location). The segments that do print in a spiral motion are excellent. Typical gcode settings are shown below and models are attached.

Any suggestions or troubleshooting ideas would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bruce

; Generated with MatterSlice 1.0
; filamentDiameter = 1.7
; extrusionWidth = 0.7
; firstLayerExtrusionWidth = 0.7
; layerThickness = 0.3
; firstLayerThickness = 0.4
; automatic settings before start_gcode G21
; set units to millimeters M107
; fan off T0
; set the active extruder to 0
; settings from start_gcode M104 S215 M190 S45 M109 S215 G28
; automatic settings after start_gcode T0
; set the active extruder to 0 G90
; use absolute coordinates G92 E0
; reset the expected extruder position M82
; use absolute distance for extrusion
; Layer count: 116
; MatterControl Version 1.5.3 Build 1.5.3.6876 : GCode settings used
; Date 06/18/2016 00:00:00 Time 15:46
; avoidCrossingPerimeters = True
; outsidePerimetersFirst = False
; bottomClipAmount = 0
; centerObjectInXy = True
; continuousSpiralOuterPerimeter = True
; endCode = M104 S0 ; turn off temperature\nM140 S0\nG91\nG1 Z10 E-5.0 F12000\nG90\nG28 \nM84
; disable motors
; zOffset = 0
; extruderOffsets = [[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0],[0,0]]
; extrusionWidth = 0.7
; fanSpeedMaxPercent = 100
; fanSpeedMinPercent = 60
; filamentDiameter = 1.7
; extrusionMultiplier = 1
; firstLayerExtrusionWidth = 0.7
; firstLayerSpeed = 4
; firstLayerThickness = 0.4
; firstLayerToAllowFan = 2
; outputType = REPRAP
; generateInternalSupport = False
; generateSupportPerimeter = False
; generateSupport = False
; supportPercent = 50
; infillExtendIntoPerimeter = 0.2
; infillPercent = 100
; infillType = LINES
; infillSpeed = 12
; bridgeSpeed = 15
; bridgeFanSpeedPercent = 100
; retractWhenChangingIslands = False
; raftFanSpeedPercent = 15
; raftPrintSpeed = 12
; infillStartingAngle = 0
; wipeAfterRetraction = False
; insidePerimetersSpeed = 12
; layerThickness = 0.3
; minimumExtrusionBeforeRetraction = 200
; minimumPrintingSpeed = 5
; minimumLayerTimeSeconds = 3
; unretractExtraExtrusion = 0
; minimumTravelToCauseRetraction = 200
; numberOfBottomLayers = 0
; numberOfSkirtLoops = 4
; numberOfTopLayers = 0
; topInfillSpeed = 7
; outsidePerimeterSpeed = 12
; outsidePerimeterExtrusionWidth = 0.7
; numberOfPerimeters = 1
; positionToPlaceObjectCenter = [0,0]
; enableRaft = False
; raftExtraDistanceAroundPart = 5
; raftAirGap = 0.15
; supportAirGap = 0.3
; retractionOnExtruderSwitch = 10
; retractionOnTravel = 15
; retractionSpeed = 60
; retractionZHop = 0
; skirtDistanceFromObject = 6
; skirtMinLength = 267.035382986069
; startCode = ; automatic settings before start_gcode\nG21
; set units to millimeters\nM107 ; fan off\nT0
; set the active extruder to 0\n
; settings from start_gcode\nM104 S215\nM190 S45\nM109 S215\nG28\n
; automatic settings after start_gcode\nT0
; set the active extruder to 0\nG90
; use absolute coordinates\nG92 E0
; reset the expected extruder position\nM82
; use absolute distance for extrusion
; toolChangeCode =
; supportExtruder = -1
; supportInterfaceExtruder = 0
; raftExtruder = -1
; supportLineSpacing = 1.5
; supportExtrusionPercent = 100
; supportInfillStartingAngle = 15
; supportMaterialSpeed = 12
; supportType = LINES
; supportXYDistanceFromObject = 1
; supportInterfaceLayers = 0
; travelSpeed = 300
; wipeShieldDistanceFromObject = 0
; wipeTowerSize = 0
Attachments
35p5xp7_Test.stl
0.7mm wall thickness test cylinder
(102.52 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
35p5mm Test.stl
1mm wall thickness test cylinder
(135.82 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

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CodonExe
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by CodonExe » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:15 pm

Do you have a photo?

Would you say your problem occurs after 200mm of continuous extrusion? That would be 5.6 layers.
Rostock Max V2, Duet Wifi, IR Probe, PanelDue 7" LCD, Heated Enclosure, Firestop cans, Thermally Fused 12v E3D V6, Berd Air, Floating Thermally fused 24v Bed, Aluminum heat spreader, PEI, Dual 12v PSUs in series.

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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by geneb » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:53 am

Try the stand-alone version of Slic3r.

g.
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AlanZ
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by AlanZ » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:07 pm

I had the same problem with MatterControl 1.5 (spiral worked for me in earlier versions.)
I spent quite a lot of time fussing with it, and finally gave up and went to simplify3d, where vase mode works perfectly.

bruceg
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by bruceg » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:50 am

Thanks for the replies,

Downloaded Slic3r last night and it produced a helical path no problem. It took a little tinkering to get a suitable retraction interval in order to avoid wedging the filament in the tube but am now happily spiraling away with NinjaFlex at a heady 10mm/s.

Holy1
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by Holy1 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:58 am

bruceg wrote:Thanks for the replies,

Downloaded Slic3r last night and it produced a helical path no problem. It took a little tinkering to get a suitable retraction interval in order to avoid wedging the filament in the tube but am now happily spiraling away with NinjaFlex at a heady 10mm/s.


10mm/s takes a long time. I use this and can do 40 mm/s with Ninjaflex for hours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1494685
Orion to Cartesian viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7808

bruceg
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by bruceg » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:06 pm

I use this and can do 40 mm/s with Ninjaflex for hours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1494685


Holy1, indeed i spied your extruder a few weeks ago and plan to give it a go. Of course i didn't come across it until just after a little shipment of goodies from both Robotdigg and E3D-Online had arrived so i am casting about for an M8 hobbed bolt source that has a reasonable shipping option into Canada. Perhaps i will just have to justify getting some more stuff...

What is the length of your Bowden tube?

The tube length in my Rostock is on the order of 600mm/24" and the limiting factor at the moment seems to be the NinjaFlex "accordioning" in the Bowden tube. The first 2cm or so extrudes with very little effort then eventually the hobb gear starts slipping on the filament, however, extrusion at the hot end continues (presumably due to the elastic energy stored in the accordioned filament). Retracting (or releasing the idler bearing) resolves the problem and the extrusion force immediately drops. My current extruder is a variant (Bowden tube seated within extruder body, extruder body extends to contact hobb gear and idler bearing and adjustable spring tension) of the Nylocke EZflexstruder http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?t=7416 which has enough grip with ABS/PETG/PLA to stall the standard direct drive extruder motor when being overambitious with speed.

It would be interesting to see if the smaller incremental filament feed steps afforded by a geared extruder would ameliorate the filament accordioning in the long Bowden tube. Presuming of course, that my interpretation of the problem is correct.

Holy1
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by Holy1 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:42 pm

bruceg wrote:
I use this and can do 40 mm/s with Ninjaflex for hours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1494685


Holy1, indeed i spied your extruder a few weeks ago and plan to give it a go. Of course i didn't come across it until just after a little shipment of goodies from both Robotdigg and E3D-Online had arrived so i am casting about for an M8 hobbed bolt source that has a reasonable shipping option into Canada. Perhaps i will just have to justify getting some more stuff...

What is the length of your Bowden tube?

The tube length in my Rostock is on the order of 600mm/24" and the limiting factor at the moment seems to be the NinjaFlex "accordioning" in the Bowden tube. The first 2cm or so extrudes with very little effort then eventually the hobb gear starts slipping on the filament, however, extrusion at the hot end continues (presumably due to the elastic energy stored in the accordioned filament). Retracting (or releasing the idler bearing) resolves the problem and the extrusion force immediately drops. My current extruder is a variant (Bowden tube seated within extruder body, extruder body extends to contact hobb gear and idler bearing and adjustable spring tension) of the Nylocke EZflexstruder http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?t=7416 which has enough grip with ABS/PETG/PLA to stall the standard direct drive extruder motor when being overambitious with speed.

It would be interesting to see if the smaller incremental filament feed steps afforded by a geared extruder would ameliorate the filament accordioning in the long Bowden tube. Presuming of course, that my interpretation of the problem is correct.


My Bowden tube is 24 inches too. I am using the standard Seemecnc hotend @ 235. Most of the time I turn retraction off. I get some very minor "accordioning" in the bowden tube but I don't think that is avoidable with Ninjaflex being as soft as it is but it never jams.
Orion to Cartesian viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7808

RandomFactor
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by RandomFactor » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:03 pm

Agreed. MaterControl does not do spiral vase very well. Even on a simple cylinder it jumps around at random to start new layers.

AlanZ
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by AlanZ » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:40 pm

I had no problems at all with spiral vase in MC 1.4. However, I could not get it working in 1.5, so I gave up after a long while and way too many hours of me thinking it was something I was doing wrong.

Holy1
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by Holy1 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:54 pm

bruceg wrote:
I use this and can do 40 mm/s with Ninjaflex for hours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1494685


Holy1, indeed i spied your extruder a few weeks ago and plan to give it a go. Of course i didn't come across it until just after a little shipment of goodies from both Robotdigg and E3D-Online had arrived so i am casting about for an M8 hobbed bolt source that has a reasonable shipping option into Canada. Perhaps i will just have to justify getting some more



Here is m8 hobbed bolt from a Canadian source. They have a good price on PEI too.
http://spool3d.ca/hobbed-m8-bolt-for-wades-extruder/
Orion to Cartesian viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7808

bruceg
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Re: Spiral vase mode not yielding continuous extrusion path

Post by bruceg » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:52 am

Well, the hobbed bolt will be on its way once our postal swings back into action.

In the mean time i have been setting up a geared extruder motor as well as fiddling with my current extruder design and in the process noticed that there was a fair bit of variance in the Bowden tube dimensions from different suppliers with internal diameters ranging from ~1.87mm to ~2.08mm. The hotend (standard seemecnc 0.7mm) used for the ninjaflex prints had the largest diameter tube on it. So i will attempt some semblance of methodical testing to see tube ID has an influence as i work my way up to Holy1's extruder. One could presume that a larger ID might allow more accordioning and hence lead to a jam after a certain amount of extrusion which could be consistently resolved by a large retraction move - but perhaps not...

I suppose i should also put a post on the MatterHacker forum regarding the spiraling. I did not notice anything as of last week but did see in the release notes for 1.5 that an "issue" with spiral mode had been resolved, so hopefully the current functionality is not a feature.

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