S3D version 3.0 is out

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:14 pm

I'm still trying to figure out why v3, with basically identical settings to v2.2.2, produces a crazy terrible top surface. Did they change the volume calculations? Do I need to adjust my flow down? Why would they change something so drastically? At this point, I'm still using 2.2.2 because it is vastly superior.

Fancy infill is okay, but they removed two features in regards to infill: random infill placement, and the ability to alter the rectilinear angles for top surfaces.

One step forward, two steps back in my opinion.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:21 am

Nothing got worse for me except crashing. Import your old fff.


Random infill was a joke. It made really poor parts.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby KAS » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:31 am

JFettig wrote:Nothing got worse for me except crashing. Import your old fff.


Random infill was a joke. It made really poor parts.




By chance are you crashing when slicing large files?

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:02 am

its pretty random when it crashes. No specific reason behind it.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby KAS » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:17 am

Gotcha, I was having a issue when slicing large files in KISS and S3D. The fix for me was set the affinity to only use 7 processors vs all 8.

It would crash and reset the computer anytime slicing large files with layers under .2mm

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:34 am

If its resetting the computer - you might have a thermal issue or something else on your hands. The crashes I have are just software crashes that seem to crash for a specific reason a couple times then never again.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby KAS » Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:10 pm

It's been a issue for a few people with the 8 core AMD processors. I wouldn't think it's a thermal issue as the PC is liquid cooled and never above 30c. 3.0 hasn't crashed the PC yet.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:05 pm

JFettig wrote:Nothing got worse for me except crashing. Import your old fff.


Random infill was a joke. It made really poor parts.


Well, I'll try importing my old settings directly, but we were advised not to do that by S3d staff.

Random infill placement was not a joke. It helps when printing large pieces with very low infill values. Instead of very spaced out lines of infill, it's more of a web that will more easily support the top structure.

Also, the top surface quality thing is not super obvious unless you're printing a large and short piece. I was printing pieces that were 8" x 4" and only 1mm thick. The top surface (the third solid layer) had all sorts of lines raised up, and where the infill connects to the permiter in certain spots was terrible... switching back to 2.2.2, using any settings, instantly improved the problem. It's definitely a slicing problem, and I suspect it's related to a change in the way the infill/perimeter overlap is calculated or how the flowrate is calculated. It is precisely repeatable, and never changes.

The fact that I'm not the only user experiencing this confirms it's a change they made in the software. Perhaps you're not printing pieces with such large flat surfaces. Try printing a 8" x 4" rectangle, solid infill, with only 3 0.3mm layers. I can basically guarantee you that you will have a nice surface on 2.2.2 and a terrible surface on 3.0.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby crocky » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi,

I went out and spent some money for a licence now that version 3 is here...

First thing I had to do was replace the leaky old seemecnc hot end with a new e3d one. I have just been doing some experiments with different cpu's and pc's and I think it runs better on a windows winbook than the mac. It caused the mac to get bogged down when it was printing.

I am using ABS at present to print some victorian lanterns and it is working very well but I am noticing the top infill surface is not completely flat, small problem and the only one that I have noticed so far. I will continue to play with the settings...
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby Micael » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:00 am

Surprised that no one has mentioned a quite a nice addition, which is the "Print Every infill angle on each layer", before this update if you wanted to have say a 45 and a -45 degree angle in the same layer, you would need to increase infill Extrusion width from 100% to 200%, and ofc even that wasn't exactly the same as putting down both angles on the same layer, since it meant putting down the plastic of the previous layer from a bigger height.
Now not only does it do both angles from the same layer, but the Infill Extrusion Width is reflected in the preview aswell, same with the infill percentage which before to get say 20% infill with 200% width, it required reducing the infill to 10%, it was just quite a mess to do the 200% thing, which was needed if one was going for structurally strong parts.
Also for those that haven't noticed, that's the difference between Rectilinear infill and Grid infill, also it doesn't work with fast honeycomb, since fast honeycomb has 2 different layers that are programmed into the infill and not on the angles, unlike the full honeycomb where it just has 1 type of infill, and it's governed by the angle offsets

Another option that hasn't been mentioned and that can probably have a nice use is the Ooze shield, they are advertising it as being for dual toolhead printers, but it could potentially also be quite a good "shell" to keep the heat in the part, better than just increasing the skirt layers I would say, since it follows the model, and is automatically sized to the model, it can even work the same way as a skirt shell by changing the sidewall shape from waterfall/countoured to vertical.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:34 pm

bot - post up factory files from each version of the same part and I'll have a look.


Here are a couple of 910 parts with 5 top layers. Hard to see because its translucent but its the best I could get with my phone.

Image
Image

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:06 pm

Here is a gold ABS example - same settings as used in previous version of S3D
Image

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:52 pm

The problem is on LARGE top surfaces... I cannot post a factory file of the exact models because they are for a client, but like I said, model yourself a rectangle that is 8" x 4" and .9mm tall, print it at .3mm layers with 100% infill, same settings, both versions.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:39 pm

large small, whats the difference? Are you running 1% infill or something? Export out your print profile(.fff) if you can't post a factory file. I'd be very curious to see what your settings are that you're working with to have such issues.

The default settings going from earlier versions of S3D are very different than 3.0, I can only imagine its some default setting that you haven't changed that is bugging you. I posted up my FFF files - download the ABS file and try it out.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:10 pm

Of course big and small makes a difference. I don't really appreciate how you're treating me as if I'm an idiot. If I had a setting "wrong" it's because they changed how the setting acted without proper documentation.

Here's a factory file, because FFF profiles are in a mysterious place in 3.0. And actually this factory file has settings that I modified while trying to fix the problem, but the problem still exists. I originally was running a 15% outline overlap and a 10% thin wall overlap, not that the thin wall comes into play.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby Mac The Knife » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:38 pm

bot wrote:Of course big and small makes a difference. I don't really appreciate how you're treating me as if I'm an idiot.




Must be the font you're using.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:20 pm

If that's how you want to take me trying to help - I won't bother.

First thing I see in your settings - your infill is set to 25% printing every other layer with 100% infill - this is how they did it in previous versions and the latest version allowed it to be set to "print all angles on one layer" - or use the "grid" option.

Your extrusion width is set to less than nozzle diameter - at .38mm vs .4mm, .3mm layer thickness at .38mm width will give you troubles. Print speed is at 70mm/s which is quite fast - the solid infill underspeed is at 100%, lots of settings are working against you.

Suggested settings: .44mm extrusion width(use the extrusion multiplier or filament diameter to adjust actual extrusion width), .20 or .25mm layer thickness, 50mm/s or less for solid infill(you can adjust this with the solid infill underspeed) and use grid or hexagon infill. If you want to keep using rectilinear - turn up extrusion width to 150-200% but it won't be as good as grid or hexagon.

x/y and z axis movement speeds can all be set to 300mm/s - some people like to turn x and y down for large prints(like your 4x8" print). I choose to leave them be as I haven't had any issues.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:29 pm

Those were all variables I was changing. Just try and print that shape with any settings, and show me, then I will try the same settings, and we'll see if it's the machine or the g-code that is the difference. I suspected a hardware problem at first, but it went away the instant i changed back to 2.2.

I'm sorry if you were really trying to help, it seemed like you were just trying to be condescending. I tried everything you suggest, I went through half a kilo of PLA trying to troubleshoot the issue. I can guarantee that there is something different about the g-code that is causing the problem. I tried to compare the two gcode files, and couldn't figure out what the difference is. If you can print that rectangle with 3 solid .3mm layers and have a nice finish on the top one with gcode from v3.0, I will eat my hat.

Notice that the object is solid. There are no portions where internal infill becomes relevant.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:37 pm

Here are a couple photos illustrating the difference between 3.0 and 2.2... and these two examples were printed at the EXACT same settings, minus the settings missing from 2.2 that are in 3.0.

It wasn't just the different filament, the problem was present regardless of the filament used.

IMG_3043c.jpg

IMG_3042c.jpg
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:44 pm

I'm not gonna waste any more time on the issue if you're not interested in taking the help(still haven't seen a FFF or factory file from V2.2 S3D). I'm definitely not interested in wasting the time printing nor the filament.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:12 pm

Sounds good, thanks for the help...
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby geneb » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:41 am

Psst, Bot! Try Kisslicer. :D :D :D

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby precisionpete » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:02 pm

I just have to chime in here with this S3D stuff.

I am just shocked these guys are still in business. They don't provide a trial. They piss people off who pay their bills by buying their product.
They offer help by making you wait for an upgrade to their buggy software, what do you do in the meantime for something you paid money for and cannot use?

It seems they f*cked the pooch by making some huge changes in the code and settings from old to this new improved version.

Haven't figured out what this offers over something that is either FREE or vastly cheaper (kiss)

YMMV, IMHO !

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:41 pm

It offers, for me, a streamlined workflow (when it works).

Cura was frustratingly not good with allowing quick slicing and minimal wasted time.

I haven't tried Kisslicer, but I might have to now...
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby Micael » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:06 pm

Have been using simplify3d for a little over 1 year, and personally don't really regret buying it, the reasons why I bought into it at the time was stuff like manual supports, and multiple profiles (I know you can edit gcode, but who wants to do that), other nice bonus were the insanely better slice times and the quite good visualization.
These days if one is doing a considerable amount of printing I would strongly recommend simplify3d

With time I ended up finding a lot more things to like about it, and ofc a lot of straight up stupid things the software did, like the default way in which it used to lay down the infill by doing 1 angle in one layer, and then doing a different angle on the next layer, which resulted in weaker infill, that was even visible say when one cut/crushed a part in half (the infill layers were clearly separated by force), or the fact that for some reason they thought it was a good idea to have random infill placement on as a default which while not a completely useless option, it creates extremely weak parts (wasted easily more than 2kg of ABS from these 2 stupid behaviors), even stuff that one couldn't control was done badly at some point, like the walls could sometimes have empty spaces between them (fortunately it was fixed shortly after I got the software I believe).

bot wrote:I haven't tried Kisslicer, but I might have to now...


You should also try mattercontrol if you haven't, cura is honestly very weak, before I got simplify3d I was constantly moving from the insane slic3r which at the time at least to me felt like it had way too many useless and or badly explained options (also didn't always slice models properly), and cura which is way too simplistic for my taste, also slicing models on it is glacially slow.


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