S3D version 3.0 is out

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:35 pm

Could be an inclusion in the corner of your mesh, try putting a small fillet in the corner, or try another model

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:45 am

I've done both and the artifact remains. It is, in my educated guess, a path generation problem. Even if if two corners are .06mm apart this artifact shows up. I've decreased office to .3, extrusion width and a lot of other controlled tests and although the path can be made better or worse, it does not go away.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:47 am

I updated my post on the S3D forum after doing a set of controlled tests to show how the issue "develops". Here is a screen shot showing the results:

Image


Of course, Slic3r, Cura and KISS have no problems with these test parts or my actual 13 star Independence Day version.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bvandiepenbos » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:28 pm

mhackney,
that is to bad it is making those strange artifacts. I had not used s3d in 8 months maybe longer, just did not see any advantage and their interface and methodology was confusing.
However, I am really liking the v3. Easier to use from what I can remember from before.
It is producing great prints. Right from their built in defaults for the RMAX. The only things I changed are nozzle size to .4, 1st layer to 125% thickness.
used high quality preset (.15mm layers) with black ABS
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:42 pm

Brian, I thought I would give them another fair shake now that they released 3.0. It has several new infill styles and as a 3.0 product should have most of the wrinkles ironed out. V3 does seem to be a bit more intuitive but I still prefer mm/s instead of S3D's choice to use mm/min.

Unfortunately, the first 3 designs I attempted to slice have these sorts of corner artifacts. I have conducted enough controlled experiments (see previous post and I've done more since) to assert that this is a slicer issue. I have also not been able to get good top surfaces and there are a number of complaints about that in their forum. I can use KISS for these star parts and the other one and perhaps use S3D for some parts with no internal holes or circular holes but I can't use it if the top surface isn't absolutely smooth/perfect. I've conducted similar set of experiments to test the various settings on top surface quality but haven't converged on a workable set yet.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby bot » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:35 pm

Ditto on the top surfaces. After wasting like half a kilo of plastic and tons of hours trying to get the top surfaces looking right, switching back to 2.2.2 fixed it. 3.0 also crashes a lot and is full of tons of bugs.

Simplify3d is a fucking piece of shit. They don't bug test their software. They expect paying customers to do so. Well, I lost hours and money because of them.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:41 pm

Starting with earlier versions I struggled a ton, I found various workarounds and figured out how to get good prints. Going into V3, all I really have problems with is random crashes and a few other minor bugs that I can easily work around for now. I have reported everything and expect it to get taken care of with the next update - the last couple major updates they have done some quick follow-up updates.

I don't have any of the problems you guys are having. I have been successfully printing for quite a while now. Lots of nice parts where I haven't spent much time in Kisslicer or matter control or slic3r and I have not made much if anything good in those programs when I have tried.

As soon as I figure out where they save the profiles(an unwanted change in v3), I'll upload mine. - file export FFF profile
Attachments
910.zip
(2.61 KiB) Downloaded 38 times
PETG.zip
(2.57 KiB) Downloaded 38 times
ABS.zip
(2.6 KiB) Downloaded 41 times
Last edited by JFettig on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby Mac The Knife » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:43 pm

mhackney wrote:Brian, I thought I would give them another fair shake now that they released 3.0. It has several new infill styles and as a 3.0 product should have most of the wrinkles ironed out. V3 does seem to be a bit more intuitive but I still prefer mm/s instead of S3D's choice to use mm/min.

Unfortunately, the first 3 designs I attempted to slice have these sorts of corner artifacts. I have conducted enough controlled experiments (see previous post and I've done more since) to assert that this is a slicer issue. I have also not been able to get good top surfaces and there are a number of complaints about that in their forum. I can use KISS for these star parts and the other one and perhaps use S3D for some parts with no internal holes or circular holes but I can't use it if the top surface isn't absolutely smooth/perfect. I've conducted similar set of experiments to test the various settings on top surface quality but haven't converged on a workable set yet.



You can choose mm/s if you click on the "Tools" tab, and select options. I looked for your star patten, even registered and downloaded the zip file, but no luck.
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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:46 pm

This software is more than 1 click done like your typical freeware slicer, take some time to learn it before bashing it.

Its like going from BobcadCAM(minimally optioned, cheap software) to MasterCAM(very complex, powerful, and expensive software).

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:21 pm

mhackney - I downloaded your factory file from that one thread you posted up and it only has 2 top and bottom layers - I'm assuming this isn't your standard? If so you need more layers to make a nice top surface, at least 3 or slow way down.

Start with my ABS profile I posted up, change your temps, retractions and nozzle size if needed and go from there.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:59 pm

MacTheKnoife, cool thanks!

startest-4.stl
(28.6 KiB) Downloaded 27 times


This is a simple star test that demonstrates the problem.

I almost always print 2 top and bottom layers or "0" for my exposed infill. The type of issue I see isn't related to not having enough top/bottom layers. It's not from the infill pattern telegraphing through he top layers, its the way it lays down the top layer causing - for lack of a better description - undulations (that are not at all aligned with or related to the infill). I also print the top layers very slow to get good surface finishes.

I downloaded your ABS file and made my tweaks. So far I see the same artifacts in the star test (I didn't expect there to be any improvement there). I'm printing a test disk now.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:02 pm

Hmm, I can not open the ABS.fff file in my V3 on Mac. It just doesn't do anything, no error message.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:08 pm

Ok, so a "factory file" is different than an FFF profile it appears. I had to "Import FFF profile" and then I could select it. So I tweaked just a few things for PLA (slow retract, temps, 1 perimeter) that's all I changed for this test sine I have a .4mm nozzle. Normally I would lower retract to 1mm but I'll leave that for now.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:12 pm

looks like you got it figured out, disregard the factory file in my e-mail.

I don't know what temperatures you run with PLA but you might have to adjust the speed to correlate.

One thing I've noticed thats greatly different about S3D and Matter slice and others - speeds. It seems like S3D runs significantly faster(actual platform speed) than others when telling them to run the same speed - I've had issues with top layers turning out nasty because its just printing too fast.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:21 pm

Still not sure about the difference between a factory file and an FFF!

Yes, I see that it is printing much faster at what I thought should be 40mm/s (that's what I configured). I replaced and slowed down to about 30mm/s and that seems to be on par with KISS at 40mm/s. Then I print my top layers at 20 so I tweaked down to 15 in S3D.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:27 pm

FFF file is just the profile for the print settings. When you hit edit or add process settings - you'll see a drop down called "Select Profile", its all in there. If you added my ABS profile, it probably says either 1xABS or ABS(thats what the fff file was named), you can switch between all those others. If you add my other 2, you'll see PETG and 910 for Taulman 910.

You can create, duplicate, update, etc. I have some for dual nozzles, some that are duplicate except I just added a skirt to the profile.

*.factory contains the STL file you imported, its location, properties, etc, plus all the process settings you set up.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Thanks, that makes sense now. FFF is "object independent" and is what I would create and save for printing profiles. The factory file is like a snapshot of the current settings and the STL to slice so that you can basically save your work where you are and come back later or share everything including the object with another person.


I've got a test part printing now to see how the surface finish ends up. I still need to do a lot more learning of course and maybe this is addressed somewhere now but printing 1 perimeter then going to print a perimeter somewhere else and the coming back to print the second perimeter, etc drives me crazy! I just want it to print all perimeters for each feature and be done with it. The movement involved for one at a time makes the ends of the perimeters very visible whereas printing them continuously there is very little movement and hence the ends are not blobbed or undefilled.

Ok, the test part just finished. Since your FFF has 4 top and bottom layers it ended up printing with no infill. However, the top surface a bit better but is "rough" like I've seen. You can see the difference in the different regions it fils on the top surface and the perimeters. It is tough getting a good photo but here's an attempt:

FullSizeRender 2.jpg


I tried to mark the start and ends of the different "regions". It is difficult to capture but you can see it best with the difference between the yellow region and the neighboring green region. This might seem inconsequential/trivial but it does look a lot worse in person and there are 6 distinct regions that are visibly different. I'll work at it a bit more and try to do a 1-1 comparison with KISS so you can see the difference. I suspect that it is due to the discontinuous way it fills in the top layer - similar to the single perimeter at a time. KISS tries to start and end all regions on a perimeter if possible - hard to describe but you can tell the difference if you watch KISS vs S3D gcode print. Perhaps there is a setting/s to be make it more continuous?

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:00 pm

I forgot to mention, this is the first time I attempted to print direct from S3D, previously I exported the gcode and printed from Repetier. It connected and printed fine, the controls easy to use/understand.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:48 pm

Usually when that happens with the perimeter, the openings are just too close together to print all the perimeters consecutively. It drives me nuts too. It was worse at one point but usually it doesn't do that.

Your test part looks to be over extruded from the fuzzy picture, hard to tell for sure.

I have never printed anything using the S3D printer control and never plan to. I always use SD card, its 100x more reliable I have never had a print failure due to SD printing but have had extremely high failure rate printing with anything hooked up by USB.

I'm not really sure what you mean exactly with the last statement.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:56 am

Yes, I am decreasing the extrusion amount a bit and that is helping but interestingly, the first layer seems a bit under extruded compared to KISS at the same settings and turning down the amount for the top layer makes it much worse. I guess I can used a factory for the first layer only. I can tell this on parts that I do my special "engraving" stuff on to customize the reel. The engraving is .6mm wide and .6mm deal. When the flow and layer height are right on, I get nice crisp openings. If too much, they get filled in a it and if too little they are too wide and usually have gaps.


Which last statement were you referring too?

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:47 am

Ok, success on a nice smooth top layer. Tweaked the flow down to 88% and got this:

FullSizeRender.jpg


The visible infill might hide how smooth the surface is, but it's quite nice in person :)

Here is an example of my "engraving" technique:

FullSizeRender.jpg


This is where first layer height and dead-on slicing parameters is critical. This first layer is just ever so slightly undefiled as can be seen by divots at the tops of the letters. A little tweak here with a special first layer factory should close those. This is quite a good embossing that rivals what I can do in KISS>

Finally, I am struggling with "perimeter blobs" like this:

FullSizeRender.jpg


I've already trimmed them off the smaller posts where they were much worse. Some were also snapped off the center post. I have been able to eliminate these in KISS and KISS also has an interesting feature where it starts the perimeter from the inside at a 45° angle and ends it the same way. This probably has a lot to do with how clean the perimeters are on KISS gcode. I have not started to attack this problem yet in S3D but it is next on the list. Any suggestions?

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby JFettig » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:27 am

Bump your nozzle temp up a bit, or maybe your retraction - those blobs are excess nozzle pressure oozing out during a rapid move.

edit- another thing to note, if your infill extrusion width is over 100%, it could also be excess pressure due to that. Under the advanced tab, uncheck "only wipe extruder for outer-most perimeters", it helps a little bit on that. I found that infill extrusion width over 150% required really high temps to keep nozzle pressures low to prevent this problem.


Check your infill outline overlap on the Infill tab - increase that to decrease the divots in the letters.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby mhackney » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:41 am

Thanks. I'm drawing up a part to use to test and tune this and not waste a lot of time. I'll start with retract since I run a pretty low retract with KISS.

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby duvdev » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:28 pm

I got the new ver and I am happy with it.
one thing I could'nt find is Z-hop like I have in cura.
where can I find it?

Thanks

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Re: S3D version 3.0 is out

Postby KAS » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:40 pm

duvdev wrote:I got the new ver and I am happy with it.
one thing I could'nt find is Z-hop like I have in cura.
where can I find it?

Thanks




I don't use Cura, but that sort of sounds like Retraction Vertical Lift in S3D. Located on the Extruder tab near the retraction distance.


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