Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

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d1rron
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Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by d1rron » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:54 am

Hello, I've been having problems with my EzStruder -- mainly that my stepper keeps getting very hot. I was considering trying another stepper, but then someone recommended I consider a Bondtech Mini. So I'm just wondering what everyone thinks and if they have rival suggestions?

I'm running a Prometheus V2 hot end if that matters.

Thanks!
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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:19 am

As a huge fan of the mini, I have to tell you this is a great idea based on real world experience. Now specifically, no, I have not done this exact thing (a flying extruder bowden feed on a Delta), however, I am testing the same mini both in direct drive and as a bowden second extruder on another printer.
Because the mini uses a smaller drive gear, the effective linear force is increased compared to say the drive gear on the stock EZStruder, but not just that, grip is increased and friction in the drive is decreased compared to single hobbed gear drives. The reason is, you don't have to squish the filament so hard into the drive gear as in a single side drive, but the grip factor still goes up.

FWIW, I'm running a QR geared bowden (non-flying extruder) on my Rostock max V2 and love it.

If you contact Martin of Bondtech, he can send you the STL files of the Raise 3D N2 mini Bowden drive I was testing that perfect for this application.
I would share them myself but I think he initially wants folks to contact him. E-mail: order@bondtech.se
Tell him I sent you and again, ask him for those files for the Bontech mini Bowden for the N2.

That has the integrated pushfits both top and bottom, is the smallest housing, and has an insert on the side for an m5 thread insert for mounting to a bracket. I think it would be nothing to adapt for this situation. Again, contact martin and tell him Jetguy sent you and he'll hook you up on this.
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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:21 am

Also, his shipping is insanely fast considering international shipping. Often parts goes out the same day as shipped. I got mine in 3 days or less (YMMV).

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:26 am

Also, FWIW, I put the Bondtech mini on the new ERIS too!!
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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:36 am

If your extruder motor is getting hot, you should adjust its current. The same motor with the same settings won't change temp much with a different extruder strapped to it. Measure its temp with an infrared thermometer. The rule of thumb that I've heard repeatedly on this forum is that 50c is ok, but 80c is pushing it.

I won't talk you out of the BondTech, they're excellent, but make sure you're chasing down the right issue before you spend money to fix it.

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:43 am

More details if you do go Bondtech mini. I totally understand people balking at upgrades, but the feeder makes or breaks your printing experience in a lot of cases.

Since the motor is not attached to anything, definitely turn down the current or add a fan not not melt the housing. I printed my test ones in Raise 3D PLA/PHA blend that is pretty heat resistant, but sent off my final versions to Shapeways in SLS printed nylon. Again, this is a huge, huge upgrade over stock, same reason I put it on the ERIS.

You need the mini gear kit http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/kits/bondtec ... gears.html
also get the optional $5 thumbscrew, spring and washer add-on.
Then you need a second pushfit from here http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/components/p ... -4-mm.html
$2.10

And, if you want to use that M5 hole for mounting, get an M5 insert http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/components/t ... rt-m5.html $0.40

So you are looking at:
$55 gear kit+ thumbscrew
$2.10 for the other pushfit
$0.40 for the m5 insert
$57.50 before shipping- also need to print the housing.

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:08 am

Jetguy wrote:I totally understand people balking at upgrades, but the feeder makes or breaks your printing experience in a lot of cases.

That wasn't my intention, the BondTech is awesome - no question. I just wanted to make sure that the intention was actually to upgrade and not to treat a symptom that might still be present after the swap.

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by d1rron » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:23 pm

I didn't realize it utilizes the old stepper. I'll try turning current down -- any minimum value I should avoid going below? Ive got the Kysan/AT steppers. But yeah, I wanted to see what people thought of the Mini as an upgrade for my hanging struder setup, too. I noticed they have a Wanhao kit for $85. Could that be converted easily or would I still need to print some stuff?

My printer is doing pretty well, so I'd imagine that I could just order some Nylon and throw on my 0.4mm nozzle. I completed my first successful prints last night after swapping over to a Max Metal frame. Im excited. But now I'm relearning how to print well with regard to settings such as retraction, temp, z height, etc, but I'm not having bed level issues like I was. For a long time I just left default retraction values, and now I'm learning that that's probably not best for a Prometheus V2 with a hanging struder. Lol
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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:17 pm

The Wanhao kit won't have pushfit in and out, which is kind of what you want for a flying extruder. The Wanhao is basically the same design, just specific to fit that printer and since the feeder its above the hotend, no lower output pushfit.

So basically, you pay $85 for a printed housing and gearset, and it's not ideal for what you want.
For reference, when I sent off to Shapeways, the printed parts were roughly $45 with shipping (it's 3 separate print parts).
He's getting a better deal on his printed parts and I think giving a little kit discount (maybe).

It you ask him or come up with a design, Martin is really great to deal with and might be able and willing to really help you get the custom part you want as a kit. But you might wait a few weeks as he is sending off the print just as if you sent it to shapeways.

In my mind, buy the gear set, print a test housing, run it, and then order the SLS parts or don't, just keep on using your printed parts.
I ran for a good month on my printed parts without even the hint of wear or an issue. But I like the security and toughness of the SLS nylon, and they look sharp. I figure if I'm upgrading, might as well go the extra bit.

As to current, the general rule is about 80-95% of rated current. A Kysan (assuming the common 1.5A rated) roughly 1.2 to 1.35A would be what I would use. Not knowing your driver and setup, I don't know what vref to you need to achieve that setting.

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by d1rron » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:55 pm

Good to know! I'll just get the gear set and all that then, thanks for all the help!
"I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment because they'll never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived. After all... we're only mortal."-JLP

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by Jetguy » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:43 am

Just pinging this one to see where it went. I'm curious if you got your gear set and tried this. If you need any help, just ask.

Also, curious if you worked with Martin of Bondtech to get a custom design going for a flying extruder strap or mounting system.
He's really good and is willing to help model as much as he can.

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Re: Bondtech Mini for hanging extruder?

Post by d1rron » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:33 am

Well it turns out that my existing mount works fine since it attaches at the stepper. I do need to reprint it in a more resilient material than PLA though. After so many hours of printing the mount has warped a bit and now I have to also use a few zip ties to hold it in place, and even then it's kind of sloppy.

I went ahead and printed the Bondtech Mini files in SeeMeCNC black ABS. It's the first ABS print I've done in months, and I did print it at a low resolution. It looks kind of shitty due to my flipping the Front STL and having it face down. There are lines from the support material and it's been manhandled a bit, but I think i might reprint it at 0.1mm resolution and then give it an acetone "bath" so it looks nice.

I'm printing a benchy as the first test as I type this. As soon as my phone charges a bit I'll take a couple of pictures so you can see what I've got goin' on.
Here's what I've got going on at the moment: http://imgur.com/a/s6txb

Edit: Not sure why there are some duplicates in that album. I only uploaded 6 images. Lol or maybe Imgur is only being wonky for me, Idk.

With regard to stepper heat, I turned the current down from 165 to 140 for the extruder stepper in the the firmware. It still feels hot, but maybe not as hot. I need to find my IR thermometer. I just hope it'll hold up once I get this beast into a heated enclosure.
"I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment because they'll never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived. After all... we're only mortal."-JLP

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