My first fail!

A place to post your fails. We know you got 'em, now share what you think caused 'em
h4lt
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My first fail!

Postby h4lt » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:40 am

Printed in PLA. Would this be because my bottom layer did not stick? I used 210C for the nozzle, 60C for the bed, and sprayed aquanet hairspray before printing.
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geneb
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Re: My first fail!

Postby geneb » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:52 am

Get some Elmer's Disappearing Purple glue stick and try that.

g.
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Re: My first fail!

Postby Mac The Knife » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:38 am

geneb wrote:Get some Elmer's Disappearing Purple glue stick and try that.

g.


Looking at the skirts he printed around the parts, it looks like the first layer stuck,,,, He may have gotten a jam from having to long of a retraction setting.
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h4lt
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Re: My first fail!

Postby h4lt » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:27 pm

Mac The Knife wrote:
geneb wrote:Get some Elmer's Disappearing Purple glue stick and try that.

g.


Looking at the skirts he printed around the parts, it looks like the first layer stuck,,,, He may have gotten a jam from having to long of a retraction setting.


I tend to agree. I've never really had issues with the prints sticking after the first layer. I will have to try out some Elmer's Disappearing Purple glue though, I've heard good things.

Is this a good guide for dialing in my retraction settings in matter control?
https://www.matterhackers.com/articles/retraction-just-say-no-to-oozing

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Re: My first fail!

Postby Mac The Knife » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:42 pm

I think I've seen Mhackney reccomend 1mm retract, at 35mm per second?
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Re: My first fail!

Postby Jimustanguitar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:47 pm

I know that I do 3mm @30 and it's always worked for me. I believe that MHackney's recommendation is a bit shorter and slower than that.

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Re: My first fail!

Postby geneb » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:00 pm

The HE280 has settings similar to the E3D - slow and short retracts.

g.
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Re: My first fail!

Postby TwoTone » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:04 pm

Just wondering why so many people aren't using PEI. Am I missing something?

Sorry didnt mean to derail this.

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Re: My first fail!

Postby Qdeathstar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:04 pm

not everyone knows about it. I had been printing for about a year before getting a romax and learning about pei. It's not really mentioned on the reprap forums.... I used to use hairspray, what a big f*cking mess that was.

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Re: My first fail!

Postby barry99705 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:40 am

TwoTone wrote:Just wondering why so many people aren't using PEI. Am I missing something?

Sorry didnt mean to derail this.


I'm still not using it. Glue Stick works just fine. Almost 6000 meters of filament through my printer.
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Re: My first fail!

Postby mhackney » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:08 am

Like everything in life, choice of print surface is a compromise. Many surfaces and surface treatments can produce good results. The details and an individual's specific requirements lean them one way or the other.

For me, I print primarily PLA. I produce fly fishing reels that I sell so production speed and manufacturing reliability are important as is first layer aesthetics. PEI is the only print surface that provides all of these for my work. I've printed literally 100s of kilograms of PLA on it.

  • 100% reliable first layer adhesion
  • 100% consistent performance and finished part quality (first layer aesthetics)
  • I can print that first layer about 10-15% faster than on any other surface I've used (although I've just started using FlabLam and it is pretty good too but imparts a texture - see next)
  • perfect first layer matte finish or gloss at my choosing - no textures, swirls, etc and "no muss, no fuss"
  • fast time-to-next-print - typically I just start the next print as soon as the part is removed. Occasionally I swipe with IPA and print. Rarely I might resand with 600 grit to produce a fresh matte finish. This is almost always due to "stepping out" of my routine production parts and printing other things that might leave evidence on the PEI.
  • robustness - I am still printing on the original piece of PEI that I installed 2 years ago

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Re: My first fail!

Postby mhackney » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:29 am

Jimustanguitar wrote:I know that I do 3mm @30 and it's always worked for me. I believe that MHackney's recommendation is a bit shorter and slower than that.


Shorter yes! 1mm works well on both the E3D V6 and HE280 hot ends. You can see the results in the video I posted on Sunday in my V3 build thread. That was 1mm retract at 25mm/s. I have written extensively on why slow retract/advance for PLA here but to recap:

You want the minimum retraction to clear the nozzle bore of molten filament but not so much that you leave a large cavity behind it that can and will fill with melted plastic and ooze. I've done the math elsewhere, calculate how much .4mm (or .5mm) filament is actually retracted when you retract 1.75mm filament 1 mm. It's a LOT more than you need.

Ideally, you want to retract relatively fast (and short) and advance slower. Only KISSlicer has this feature (and it was added at my request). The reason for this I've also experimented and written about extensively. Bottom line, molten PLA has non Newtonian properties - it "flow hardens" if moved too fast. I call this "hydraulic jamming". My recommendation for 20-25mm/s retract speed is a compromise because all other slicers retract and advance at the same speed. With KISS, I can retract at 40-50mm/s and advance at 20-25mm/s and get excellent results. The fast, short retract clears that nozzle bore but does not leave too large of a void that can fill. And the slower advance prevents the jamming phenomenon (non Newtonian behavior) and completely fills the (small) void that was left rather than plunge the filament out the bore.

In the PO's case, the filament starving could very well have resulted from too long/too fast advance but that is only one possible explanation, there are other contributors to filament starving but when I help diagnose issues like this I always start with retract as many people get it wrong and the slicers' default configurations are often absurd. The more frequent, short print moves made, the greater the likelihood that this issue will present. I discovered it when I first started printing parts with the "open mesh" pattern you can see in my fly reel avatar (the white part). There are dozens of very rapid, machine gun like retracts at certain places and I was consistently observing filament starving right after that. Sometimes it would clear up (but not before ruining the part). That's how I discovered the effect. 1mm retract at 20-25mm/s will eliminate problems even at these machine gun speeds. If you go higher in either parameter you can get away with it up to a point. But some day you'll print a part that has some tiny feature that requires a few quick retract cycles and BOOM, you'll have a problem and be left scratching your head!

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Start Here:
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h4lt
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Re: My first fail!

Postby h4lt » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:37 pm

mhackney wrote:Like everything in life, choice of print surface is a compromise. Many surfaces and surface treatments can produce good results. The details and an individual's specific requirements lean them one way or the other.

For me, I print primarily PLA. I produce fly fishing reels that I sell so production speed and manufacturing reliability are important as is first layer aesthetics. PEI is the only print surface that provides all of these for my work. I've printed literally 100s of kilograms of PLA on it.

  • 100% reliable first layer adhesion
  • 100% consistent performance and finished part quality (first layer aesthetics)
  • I can print that first layer about 10-15% faster than on any other surface I've used (although I've just started using FlabLam and it is pretty good too but imparts a texture - see next)
  • perfect first layer matte finish or gloss at my choosing - no textures, swirls, etc and "no muss, no fuss"
  • fast time-to-next-print - typically I just start the next print as soon as the part is removed. Occasionally I swipe with IPA and print. Rarely I might resand with 600 grit to produce a fresh matte finish. This is almost always due to "stepping out" of my routine production parts and printing other things that might leave evidence on the PEI.
  • robustness - I am still printing on the original piece of PEI that I installed 2 years ago


Is this what your'e using? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HKZTA/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Are you still attaching it to your bed with clips or do you use some sort of adhesive?

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Re: My first fail!

Postby h4lt » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:53 pm

mhackney wrote:
Jimustanguitar wrote:I know that I do 3mm @30 and it's always worked for me. I believe that MHackney's recommendation is a bit shorter and slower than that.


Shorter yes! 1mm works well on both the E3D V6 and HE280 hot ends. You can see the results in the video I posted on Sunday in my V3 build thread. That was 1mm retract at 25mm/s. I have written extensively on why slow retract/advance for PLA here but to recap:

You want the minimum retraction to clear the nozzle bore of molten filament but not so much that you leave a large cavity behind it that can and will fill with melted plastic and ooze. I've done the math elsewhere, calculate how much .4mm (or .5mm) filament is actually retracted when you retract 1.75mm filament 1 mm. It's a LOT more than you need.

Ideally, you want to retract relatively fast (and short) and advance slower. Only KISSlicer has this feature (and it was added at my request). The reason for this I've also experimented and written about extensively. Bottom line, molten PLA has non Newtonian properties - it "flow hardens" if moved too fast. I call this "hydraulic jamming". My recommendation for 20-25mm/s retract speed is a compromise because all other slicers retract and advance at the same speed. With KISS, I can retract at 40-50mm/s and advance at 20-25mm/s and get excellent results. The fast, short retract clears that nozzle bore but does not leave too large of a void that can fill. And the slower advance prevents the jamming phenomenon (non Newtonian behavior) and completely fills the (small) void that was left rather than plunge the filament out the bore.

In the PO's case, the filament starving could very well have resulted from too long/too fast advance but that is only one possible explanation, there are other contributors to filament starving but when I help diagnose issues like this I always start with retract as many people get it wrong and the slicers' default configurations are often absurd. The more frequent, short print moves made, the greater the likelihood that this issue will present. I discovered it when I first started printing parts with the "open mesh" pattern you can see in my fly reel avatar (the white part). There are dozens of very rapid, machine gun like retracts at certain places and I was consistently observing filament starving right after that. Sometimes it would clear up (but not before ruining the part). That's how I discovered the effect. 1mm retract at 20-25mm/s will eliminate problems even at these machine gun speeds. If you go higher in either parameter you can get away with it up to a point. But some day you'll print a part that has some tiny feature that requires a few quick retract cycles and BOOM, you'll have a problem and be left scratching your head!


Thanks for the detailed info. I did switched from 6.3mm retract (default setting in Matter Control) to 3mm retract and this seemed to clean things up quite a bit. I also realized that on the print that failed I was trying to print 4 different prints at once and it was printing all 4 prints a layer at a time instead of completing one print and moving to the next. I think I will try what you suggested next and slow down the speed a bit as well (I think I'm at 35-40 now). I am a novice to 3d printing as I just started this week, thanks for the help!

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Re: My first fail!

Postby Xenocrates » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:59 pm

h4lt wrote:
Is this what your'e using? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HKZTA/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Are you still attaching it to your bed with clips or do you use some sort of adhesive?


That amazon link is one source, and I got results with a piece of it. Others have reportedly had some trouble getting it to stick at first, which usually cleared up after a light sanding. I personally am currently using a sheet of about the same from Mc-Master-Carr. And yes, we do use adhesive (Unless you buy a really thick, and thus more expensive piece, it's too flexible to always lay flat on it's own), usually the 12x12 sheets of 486MP from 3M. there's a stickied installation guide thread here
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Re: My first fail!

Postby mhackney » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:41 pm

I've used the material from amazon and McMaster car with success. Read my thread. I've NEVER attached with clips, it won't be flat enough.

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Start Here:
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Re: My first fail!

Postby mhackney » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:44 pm

h4lt wrote:Thanks for the detailed info. I did switched from 6.3mm retract (default setting in Matter Control) to 3mm retract and this seemed to clean things up quite a bit. I also realized that on the print that failed I was trying to print 4 different prints at once and it was printing all 4 prints a layer at a time instead of completing one print and moving to the next. I think I will try what you suggested next and slow down the speed a bit as well (I think I'm at 35-40 now). I am a novice to 3d printing as I just started this week, thanks for the help!


3mm is still too high. Change to 1mm retract. I don't know why so many people think "more is better"! Think about retract as a poison. You want less so you don't die. :)

Sublime Layers - my blog on Musings and Experiments in 3D Printing Technology and Art

Start Here:
A Strategy for Successful (and Great) Prints

Strategies for Resolving Print Artifacts

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