Extruder Calibration

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Polygonhell » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:36 am

harley573 wrote:I'm printing at 230°C with ABS. What do you use?


Depends on the plastic, it's also hard to compare temperatures because the placement of the thermistor matters.
230 is in the right ballpark, I'd try going up 5 degrees, and test then possibly another 5 and test. I would keep it to 240 or under.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby harley573 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:51 pm

Morbid – I’m printing on the borosilicate glass on top of the onyx bed. I have no fans at this point and the only way I have to measure the heat is via the thermocouple on the machine.

Polygonhell – I’ll try increasing the temp a little and see if that makes any difference to the adhesion between the floor and the walls.

Last night, after printing that cube, I tried to print another small part that wasn’t single wall and got the same problems with the gaps and polyps I’ve had since the beginning. What causes the polyps?

I have seen a lot of stuff that suggests the extruder is to blame for a majority of the problems with gaps. Does everyone have to fight the extruder this much or is it just me? I think it is too tight because it leave hash marks in the plastic. Doesn’t distort the shape, per se, but leaves marks in the surface. But if I back off the screws any, I notice immediately that they feel very loose where I have them now and I get slipping if I loosen them up much at all. My frustration with the extruder is to the point now where I’m thinking I may re-design it. There has to be an easier way to feed the filament with a better tension control system. Certainly, there has to be a way that would make it easier to switch filament colors.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cassetti » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:55 pm

I tried a 20x20x20mm cube using the recommended slic3r settings in the first post (using slic3r 0.9.9 is the only difference). The print came out VERY well.... Except I am measuring 1.08mm wall!!!

No, I am not doing 2 shells, this is 1 shell, and then lift to next layer! I guess I have my steps per mm for the extruder set incorrectly. The filament is set to the correct thickness (1.76 which I averaged over several meters of testing randomly).

Note the first few layers were rafts - hence the bad first layers (but I have zero warping, so rafts will suffice for now).

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby harley573 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:22 am

Holy smokes! That's a tight print. I was fairly pleased with mine, but yours is clearly better. I wonder what the difference is besides the thicker wall?

Where do you go from here once you are satisfied with this calibration cube? I tried printing some other parts with these settings which resulted in utter crap.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cassetti » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:40 pm

harley573 wrote:Holy smokes! That's a tight print. I was fairly pleased with mine, but yours is clearly better. I wonder what the difference is besides the thicker wall?

Where do you go from here once you are satisfied with this calibration cube? I tried printing some other parts with these settings which resulted in utter crap.


Lol, thanks. I have some experience with slicing thanks to my past 6 moths plaything with a Makerbot Replicator at work (it's in my office, I'm the only operator). Having a pre-assembled printer removed most of the variables related to calibration. I was free to print to my heart's content. I really don't know what to say, I'm still learning just like you guys. This item was literally the 10th or 12th item I ever pulled off the printer.

I folled the directions on Polygonhell's thread, fixed my issue with the wall thickness (I had my extrusion width's set to 0, should have set them to 0.55).

---------------

First thing I did was purchase a true micrometer. This helped me truley measure my wall thickness. It turned out my digi calipers were off - my single wall width was 1.033mm. When i adjusted my extrusion widths in slic3r to 0.55, I re-measured after 2 prints (one 20x20x20 cube, one 40x40x40). Averaged the wall thickness and came out with 0.6377mm. From this, I took 0.55/0.64 which equals 0.859 and decided to print 2 solid cubes - one with an extrusion multiplier of 1.0 (default), and one with an extrusion multiplier of 0.86

The results are, well, astounding:
(Extrusion multiplier at 1.0 on left, 0.86 on right - these are high res images - feel free to view full-screen)
Image

(Note, I rotated the right cube onto it's side to show the top of the model - infill is pretty dang good. I'm pretty happy with it, for now lol)
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cambo3d » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:22 am

good job! you can help me once i get my machine back together. ;)

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cassetti » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:02 am

Thanks, I've been worried I didn't build it square enough after reading your other guy's experiences, I'm wondering what other issues I haven't discovered yet.

This was just one print, going to try more tests this weekend. Now that I've gotten this far, I decided to use my micrometer to measure my actual dimensions. I'm reading about 19.86mm in the Z which is pretty good (i think), and the X and Y seem to be reading 19.36 and 19.67 (didn't mark X or Y before removing unfortunately). I saw someone else mention this on this thread, but is that within tolerance?

My biggest issue right now is that I'm not printing on glass, I think I need to buy a plate of borosilicite glass from SMCNC so I can print bigger objects. Right now I'm getting some minor delamination issues, but I'm using 3mm brims, 0.3mm first layer height, and 0.75mm first layer extrusion width. This seems to be working well on smaller objects like this cube, we'll see what happens when I start printing larger test cubes.

I did have problems with cracking on my single wall 40x40x40mm test (no picts, battery was dead). Any suggestions how I can avoid that?
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Polygonhell » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:21 pm

cassetti wrote:I did have problems with cracking on my single wall 40x40x40mm test (no picts, battery was dead). Any suggestions how I can avoid that?


If it's delaminating print a little hotter try in 5 degree increments, ABS will do this if you are printing at borderline temperatures, it's a bit of a balancing act between cool enough that you can print a good overhang without issues and hot enough that it sticks to itself. Basically what's happening is the new layer going down on cool plastic isn't hot enough to form a strong weld with the previous one.

I'm lazy so my usual solution is to print slightly hot and turn a fan on if I have something like a tricky overhang.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cassetti » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:37 pm

Polygonhell wrote:
cassetti wrote:I did have problems with cracking on my single wall 40x40x40mm test (no picts, battery was dead). Any suggestions how I can avoid that?


If it's delaminating print a little hotter try in 5 degree increments, ABS will do this if you are printing at borderline temperatures, it's a bit of a balancing act between cool enough that you can print a good overhang without issues and hot enough that it sticks to itself. Basically what's happening is the new layer going down on cool plastic isn't hot enough to form a strong weld with the previous one.

I'm lazy so my usual solution is to print slightly hot and turn a fan on if I have something like a tricky overhang.


Thanks, I'm running at 230, but My temps are probably wrong. I need to get an accurate measurement of my temp and compare against what my thermistor is reading. Hopefully I'll get one in a week or so. But in the meantime, I'll try a single wall 40x40x40mm cube at 235C and see what happens.
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cambo3d » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:49 pm

yes do the calibration of your temps. this gives you a better idea of what your printing at. for example. at 230c (rephost reading) my hotend only reads around 222c (thermocouple inside nozzle). so i adjust accordingly

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby 626Pilot » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:44 pm

I got the wall thickness all figured out thanks to the original post. Is there some secret formula for getting the retract set up properly? I'm using PLA heated at 185 C. It works great as long as there are no jumps, but as soon as there are jumps, it drools all over the place and when it finishes the jump the filament just comes out in small globs before it catches up.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby MDMD » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:34 am

Can someone share an stl of the single wall cube with base for me? A link to thingiverse is fine too. I wasn't able to find one with a base there. I'm hoping to tackle extruder calibration soon. Thanks!

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby ApacheXMD » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:51 am

You can make "thin-wall" prints by slicing solid objects with a single loop/perimeter and 0% infill.
Simple solid objects are very easy to make with OpenSCAD.
A solid cube is done with this single line of code:

Code: Select all

cube(30);


Hit F6 to render, then Design>Export as STL

I've attached the resulting STL to save you some time, but learning the basics in OpenSCAD will open up worlds of possibilities once you get up and running.

cube.stl
Cube with 30mm sides
(1.55 KiB) Downloaded 113 times

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby MDMD » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:16 pm

Thanks for the stl. Openscad is definitely on my to learn list.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby geneb » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:50 am

It probably shouldn't be. I'd strongly suggest that if you want a usable modeler to get FreeCAD. It should do everything you need. If you've got the pockets for it, I'd REALLY recommend AutoDesk Inventor or SolidWorks. Both can be had very cheaply if you qualify for the educational discounts.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby GlenGrenier » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:22 pm

Thanks for the insightful description. My question is what are you using for a layer height during this calibration test? As well, it seems the layer height is a factor in this problem as it is a factor in the volume. Would be nice to hear your understanding and description of this.
Thanks

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Dust2Dust02 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:56 am

As a newb, this thread and ones like "the delta arm blues" scare the hell out of me.
I stopped production on mine for 4 months because of delta arm fears.
Bit the bullet and totally over sanded them because of my impatience.

I am getting the trick laser ones now and hope that will fix that. However now I am worried by this thread and threads like "Another Rostock max build" by cambo3d, that my printer is out of square by a few hundredths of an inch. Because of it I will never print anything but calibration cubes without them delaminating or coming apart... However then I think about Prusa and the likes that have printed usable parts with very rudimentary machines for a long time. Which brings me to my final question...

Are you guys just such perfectionists you are making this look harder than it is?

Or should I just throw this thing away and use Shapeaways... :geek:

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Jimustanguitar » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:07 pm

Dust2Dust02 wrote:Are you guys just such perfectionists you are making this look harder than it is?


I think we're perfectionists.

The delta arm blues sticky should be modified with a disclaimer that this is a legacy issue and doesn't have anything to do with the current machines. For several months now, they've machined the arms for a perfect tolerance and there's no sanding required at all. If anybody has the original arms still, switch now. I think the updated plastic pieces are like $10, there's not a good reason not to switch.

As far as the extruder calibration, it's just that - a calibration. There's not a glitch or some underlying issue to be fixed, it's just to help improve your results. Set it and forget it.



Honestly, I think that the delta radius setting is more of a PITA than either of these things :)

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby cope413 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:48 pm

It's a mix of both...

Deltas right now are much harder than cartesians to calibrate - simply because there are far fewer of us in the 3D printing community and less work has been done on them.

In general, Delta's will always involve a higher degree of difficulty because of more variables, but that's offset (for most of us here) by the benefits of a finely tuned machine.

The issues with calibration that you've read and are scared of are real issues, but they probably won't affect you if you're an average or light user of your machine. I say that because the super technical calibration posts and info really only apply if you're trying to get crazy good tolerances all the way out to the perimeter of your build plate.

For the first month or so with my machine, I was getting great prints - equal to or better than my Airwolf 3D v5.5 - and I was happy. As soon as I started printing bigger (150mm+ diameter), I ran into issues. I upgraded to the TL arms, I got the E3D hot end, and I used a friend and machinist's tools to square and level my machine (as you likely know, it's not easy to properly square and level your towers by yourself).

But here's the real issue that people do not yet understand about 3D printing (or life in general, but that's for another forum). Time in = results out.

There is no amount of reading you can do, no amount of videos you can watch, or forums posts you can scour that will do ANYTHING for you if you aren't trying to print stuff - and trying to print a LOT of stuff. I've said it before, but hobby level 3D printing is not a science right now. It's an art. The ONLY way you will learn to tune your machine and get great prints is to print stuff - print lots and lots of stuff. You'll print something 1 day and it'll be perfect, and you'll come back the next day, try the same file, with the same gcode, with the same filament, and it'll fail. And you'll have to figure out what variable changed and caused it. And when you figure it out, you will have added to your knowledge base and will likely never have that same issue again. And when you come up against an issue you can't seem to figure out, then you post on the forum and get all of us to chime in with our experiences from printing and it's very likely we'll help you figure it out.

Yes, having a MakerBot (I've been playing with one for about 3 months now) can be very nice for people. You drop a file in, hit print, and you get pretty good results. You're very limited in your options, but for a lot of people, that is all they need.

If you don't want to deal with the issues that arise with kits like the Max (and that's not a negative at all - I use my printers for work and pleasure, so I fully understand not having the time to spend fixing or calibrating things), then I would recommend selling it and getting something like a MakerBot. You'll pay a lot more, and you'll get a lot less as far as features go, but that may be worth it to you for your needs.

Totally understand your frustration, but I guarantee that if you're patient and put the time in, you'll come to the realization that the Max is one of, if not the best values on the market.
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Batteau62 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:10 pm

cope413 wrote:It's a mix of both...

Deltas right now are much harder than cartesians to calibrate - simply because there are far fewer of us in the 3D printing community and less work has been done on them.

In general, Delta's will always involve a higher degree of difficulty because of more variables, but that's offset (for most of us here) by the benefits of a finely tuned machine.

The issues with calibration that you've read and are scared of are real issues, but they probably won't affect you if you're an average or light user of your machine. I say that because the super technical calibration posts and info really only apply if you're trying to get crazy good tolerances all the way out to the perimeter of your build plate.

For the first month or so with my machine, I was getting great prints - equal to or better than my Airwolf 3D v5.5 - and I was happy. As soon as I started printing bigger (150mm+ diameter), I ran into issues. I upgraded to the TL arms, I got the E3D hot end, and I used a friend and machinist's tools to square and level my machine (as you likely know, it's not easy to properly square and level your towers by yourself).

But here's the real issue that people do not yet understand about 3D printing (or life in general, but that's for another forum). Time in = results out.

There is no amount of reading you can do, no amount of videos you can watch, or forums posts you can scour that will do ANYTHING for you if you aren't trying to print stuff - and trying to print a LOT of stuff. I've said it before, but hobby level 3D printing is not a science right now. It's an art. The ONLY way you will learn to tune your machine and get great prints is to print stuff - print lots and lots of stuff. You'll print something 1 day and it'll be perfect, and you'll come back the next day, try the same file, with the same gcode, with the same filament, and it'll fail. And you'll have to figure out what variable changed and caused it. And when you figure it out, you will have added to your knowledge base and will likely never have that same issue again. And when you come up against an issue you can't seem to figure out, then you post on the forum and get all of us to chime in with our experiences from printing and it's very likely we'll help you figure it out.

Yes, having a MakerBot (I've been playing with one for about 3 months now) can be very nice for people. You drop a file in, hit print, and you get pretty good results. You're very limited in your options, but for a lot of people, that is all they need.

If you don't want to deal with the issues that arise with kits like the Max (and that's not a negative at all - I use my printers for work and pleasure, so I fully understand not having the time to spend fixing or calibrating things), then I would recommend selling it and getting something like a MakerBot. You'll pay a lot more, and you'll get a lot less as far as features go, but that may be worth it to you for your needs.

Totally understand your frustration, but I guarantee that if you're patient and put the time in, you'll come to the realization that the Max is one of, if not the best values on the market.



I second every bit of this :!: :!: :!:
Well stated cope413 :!:
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby geneb » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:21 pm

...or buy an Orion.

Hell, buy _anything_ else other than a MakerBot.

However, I think if you take the time and finish your Rostock MAX kit, you'll be happy with it.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby Nylocke » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:40 pm

If the ultimaker was reasonably priced the MAX would have some competition, but I would say the MAX full and well takes the title of best value. I haven't seen as impressive of a kit for as cheap while also being super customizable and expandable.

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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby AndThenSome09 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:28 am

The delta arm blues sticky should be modified with a disclaimer that this is a legacy issue and doesn't have anything to do with the current machines. For several months now, they've machined the arms for a perfect tolerance and there's no sanding required at all.


While it is true you no longer have to sand the arms themselves, you do still endure a lot of sanding and filing to get those u - joints to pass the flick test with no side to side wobble which is easier said than done, as we all know. I thought this too played a part in the blues, maybe not, I'm not sure but IMO it introduces too much room for human error which is why I went with the Trick Laser arms from the get go but I still filed and fit the u - joints just to see how well I could do it.

But then again I love that kind of stuff and the build was most of the fun for me! I would say the Rostock Max is an incredible machine but does take a certain type of owner. I have had incredible prints and also prints that were quite unsightly, it's a learning process that does take a little time and love to get it right.
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby analog_banana » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:24 pm

Does anyone have a canonical version of this cube.
I can model stls BUT...
I am experiencing a LOT of issues with my machine, so it would be great to eliminate points of error.

I tried the stl included a few posts ago, but it was a cube, not a 20mm high cuboid
This may seem over-cautious, but I have been trying to get working prints for 10 months,
so I am being very thorough with quality control.

Thanks for any advice.
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Re: Extruder Calibration

Postby neurascenic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:51 pm

Prints 7, 8 and 9 in respective order.

Print 8 has a wall thickness that is 97.13% of the .055 thickness entered into Repetier.
Measured with a micrometer

9 is the Calibration Hollow Cube. outside surface looks fair.
No Layer Fan, which might account for the issues I am still seeing on surface.

Image

My concerns are, now that I got my thickness pretty much dialed in, the print paths aren't close enough to contact each other to make a "solid" print. I am having difficulty figuring out where the settings are in the slicer to remedy this.
the infill also does not quite make strong enough contact with the perimeter.

Have not ventured outside of Repetier Host yet.

Also, How is it possible to get it to bridge instead of infill? It bridges pretty well on the perimeters, but where the infill is, it does not adjust to a bridge, and keeps spewing infill out. (did this on all even before my extruder calibration)

Image

Image


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