Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by 626Pilot »

edward wrote:So you're confirming that the Marlin(deltabot) G29 auto-level has eliminated doming? Or are you just stating that the command functions?
The command functions, and the resulting calibration works partially. I can wedge something under one side of the build surface and it will be mapped correctly, and the nozzle will travel over the surface at an angle. However, there is still some doming near one tower. Messing with the DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD seems to make this better, but not perfect.

I'm going to do a full realignment and try again, and if that doesn't make it better I'm going to try mathematically changing tower positions.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

Thanks for the clarification. I'll be anxious to see the results if you perform an offline calibration of the tower positions. I've seen two reported successes of such a method so far.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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I realigned everything but Marlin is back to doing that thing where it moves the axes in the wrong direction after running G29. I don't know what the deal is with that. Pretty irritating. Marlin overall seems more glitchy than Repetier.

Without autolevel, even after the realignment, it STILL acts weird around the X axis. I tried rotating the X and Y towers to 59 and 61 degrees but that didn't fix it. (I want to leave Z alone and use it as the reference tower, so it's level with the center, and then bring X and Y in line with it, because it's mathematically simpler.) Maybe I need to try something more aggressive.

At this point I find it unlikely that a Z-probe can take any of the work out of aligning a Rostock MAX by itself. I'm going to keep trying, but the results so far are not encouraging. Rotating tower positions is the only thing I find likely to work, and even that hasn't shown results yet. Maybe I'll stumble into some other solution.

I think the best autolevel system would be fully closed-loop during calibration. Three Hall effect sensors, one one each tower, a neodymium magnet on the effector, and a Z-probe as well. The firmware moves the effector to various positions and triangulates where it actually ends up using the Hall sensors, which would probably have to be plugged into the three unused thermistor inputs. (Hall-O boards have a raw signal line in addition to the "stop" line, which is strictly either high or low.) Since it can move the effector to a theoretical position and then measure the actual position with the Hall sensors, it can figure out the error between where it thinks it is and where it actually is at any point. With this we can derive the printer radius and delta arm length, and correct for any geometry errors. Additionally, the Z-probe lets it map the surface of the build platform, so it also knows exactly where it's laying down filament.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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Alright, I mounted a depth gauge to the platform and tried again.

The Hall-O mount I made seems to have an accuracy of ~0.1mm, possibly because there is a small amount of sideways play. I learned this by observing successive bed probes - it dumps the Z height for each point, each time. 0.1mm of accuracy is about 1/5 as good as it needs to be, so that's not good enough. Printing it with a slightly higher filament multiplier might solve the problem. The SeeMe probe is probably better since it uses an endstop switch.

I resolved the issue with the carriages moving upward after G29 by changing some of the endstop settings. However, because of the accuracy issue, running G29 actually made positioning LESS accurate than it was already. There was still the odd behavior near the X axis, whether I ran G29 or not. G29 did make the head track at an angle if I propped the print surface up on one side, so it is doing its job - it just needs a better sensor.

With the autolevel matrix cleared, I tried mathematically moving towers again. I started by adding SIN_59, COS_59, SIN_61, and COS_61 to Configuration.h where it defines the three towers:

Code: Select all

// Effective X/Y positions of the three vertical towers.
#define SIN_59 0.85716730070211228747
#define COS_59 0.51503807491005421008
#define SIN_60 0.8660254037844386
#define COS_60 0.5
#define SIN_61 0.87461970713939580028
#define COS_61 0.48480962024633702908
#define DELTA_TOWER1_X -SIN_60*DELTA_RADIUS // front left (X) tower
#define DELTA_TOWER1_Y -COS_60*DELTA_RADIUS
#define DELTA_TOWER2_X SIN_61*DELTA_RADIUS // front right (Y) tower
#define DELTA_TOWER2_Y -COS_61*DELTA_RADIUS
#define DELTA_TOWER3_X 0.0 // back middle (Z) tower
#define DELTA_TOWER3_Y DELTA_RADIUS
Wherever the printer screwed up on height, I looked at the tower it was near and I watched how fast each carriage moved as the effector moved in and out of the trouble area. I did this for a good ten or fifteen minutes, just to get an intuitive sense of what the printer was doing and where it was probably going wrong. It was OK near the Y axis, but near the X axis it would lift. I noticed that in the problem area, the X tower carriage doesn't move much but the Y and Z do, especially the Y. Eventually I came to believe that the Y tower was slightly counterclockwise to where it's supposed to be, reasoning that if I mathematically pushed it in that direction that the firmware would compensate by pushing or pulling it just a little bit more during moves near the X tower. The increased push would bring the nozzle closer to the surface.

I ran several tests. I set DELTA_TOWER2_X and DELTA_TOWER2_Y to the sin/cos of 59, 60, and 61, and each time I did this I probed near each tower and made a note of how high or low each one was relative to the reference (Z tower in my case.) With three sampling points, I could see the effect of rotating the tower clockwise and counterclockwise. Sure enough, 59 degrees made it worse and 61 degrees made it better, so I left it at 61. I was then able to print the Onyx bed leveling aid successfully for the first time, ever.

Long story short: IF you have a sufficiently accurate Z probe, and IF you have your printer properly aligned (which may involve mathematically moving one or more towers around), Marlin's bed probing routine will automatically level the bed. I haven't tried Repetier's endstop leveling with the rotated Y tower yet, but I'm assuming it's probably the same story. As long as the geometry is solid, it's worth it to have a Z probe so you don't have to worry about manually setting the height or fiddling with the endstop screws.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

Nice :D

I'm thrilled to hear that someone else has been able to manually adjust the tower positions and see improved results! I was hating feeling the "works for me" attitude, because with the little information presented I can't know enough about a machine to offer sound advice.

As a reminder, Roland did accept my "commit" into Repetier 0.90alpha for EEPROM adjustment of the angular tower positions. He didn't include the radial adjustments...maybe I should get back to him on that. Since you seem to be the experimenting type, I'd be interested in how things work if you "copy" these tower positions into the Repetier development branch and experiment with the calibration routines. I'd like to, but the new job isn't leaving much time for these things :(
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by 626Pilot »

Part of "works for me" is that the tower position is just one thing that can screw it up. The delta arm length and printer radius have to coincide with all three tower positions or there will be problems. If someone takes this method and applies it to their printer, but their radius is 0.3mm off, maybe it won't work. You also have to redo the center height, all the endstop screws, and the printer radius after you move the tower. Hopefully you know how long your delta arms are. The only way I know to test that is to try printing something really tall and see whether it messes up halfway in.

I'm going to try moving back to Repetier. I'll let you know if the "endstop leveling" is worth the effort.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

626Pilot wrote:The delta arm length and printer radius have to coincide with all three tower positions or there will be problems.
I'm not sure this statement is helpful. The delta arm length and tower positions are not directly related, i.e., adjustments to one won't affect the other. Printer radius and tower positions are...
626Pilot wrote:If someone takes this method and applies it to their printer, but their radius is 0.3mm off, maybe it won't work.
I think it would work, but you would be chasing the correct values for many more iterations than necessary. I had a good 4-point calibration when I started, effectively eliminating a variable. I'm not sure how you would positively identify the "bad" spots without a bare-minimum good calibration, because with an in-spec machine, 4-points is all that should be required. While I did end up making a minor tweak to the printer radius in the end, that was only after I moved my Z-tower +0.15 mm radially, which ultimately required a correction of the radius by approximately +0.075 mm.
626Pilot wrote:Hopefully you know how long your delta arms are. The only way I know to test that is to try printing something really tall and see whether it messes up halfway in.
I would suggest measuring if there is any doubt. Arbitrarily changing this value will cause scaling issues that you surely don't want.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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edward wrote: The delta arm length and tower positions are not directly related, i.e., adjustments to one won't affect the other. Printer radius and tower positions are...
If you adjust one parameter, the effect of the others is also changed. They are all used to figure out how far to push or pull in order to get a desired position, and they're all compromised to the degree that any of them is inaccurate. In other words, none of these variables is an island.
I'm not sure how you would positively identify the "bad" spots without a bare-minimum good calibration
You wouldn't.
I would suggest measuring if there is any doubt. Arbitrarily changing this value will cause scaling issues that you surely don't want.
My calipers aren't super accurate. When I was having problems printing objects more than a few inches tall, I resolved the issue by increasing my delta arm length in steps until I could bracket the right setting.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by 626Pilot »

Roland had this to say in an update to the ticket today:
I rewrote the z-leveling for delta. It is now working correctly and no iterative solution is needed. Please read the docs on my homepage on the new calibration procedure.
Anyone tried this yet?
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by Eaglezsoar »

626Pilot wrote:Roland had this to say in an update to the ticket today:
I rewrote the z-leveling for delta. It is now working correctly and no iterative solution is needed. Please read the docs on my homepage on the new calibration procedure.
Anyone tried this yet?
I'm waiting for SeeMeCNC to get it working and come out with a kit from that neat looking sampler they made.
May be a long wait.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

626Pilot wrote:Anyone tried this yet?
I've been travelling all week. I haven't turned on my printer for something like 2+ weeks. Can't say when I'll get to it myself, but I'm interested in hearing any results if someone else tries.

Edit: Also, where'd you read this?
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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edward wrote:
626Pilot wrote:Anyone tried this yet?
I've been travelling all week. I haven't turned on my printer for something like 2+ weeks. Can't say when I'll get to it myself, but I'm interested in hearing any results if someone else tries.

Edit: Also, where'd you read this?
Ticket #120 in the "Issues" area of the Repetier github. If anyone wants to try it, the command is git pull (URL to Repetier repository) --branch=development. If you don't supply that last part you will just get the current production code, which doesn't have these fixes.

Anyway, bed leveling on top of the fix for stalling mid-print are both available in the development branch now. I compiled it and tested. Sure enough, it DOES NOT freeze on something that it was freezing on before. However, the bed leveling is a different story. TLDR: It still doesn't seem to work, but the documentation is missing some paragraphs so I don't know for sure.

There is an interesting new procedure for leveling the towers, one that could be useful to us even without bed leveling. He instructs you to disable the steppers and use a ruler to space all of the carriages exactly the same distance from the top of the towers, the idea being that if they're all precisely the same distance then the effector is exactly "centered." I did this by putting a ruler on its side between the carriage top and the endstop mount, at an angle across the carriage top in order to get a better level. He also says you can use a ruler to make them all the same distance from the bottom (of the tower, not the bed), which I suppose is the same thing. Then he has you run a custom G-code that is like G28, but it counts steps along the way to see how far each carriage is from the top when it's centered. So that levels the endstops, and from then on running G28 will cause the carriage to "bounce" a little after homing in order to center itself.

After that you're supposed to run other G-code to level the bed, but he forgot to type up that part. I tried the Cartesian instructions but they had exactly the same "raise on one side and dip on the other" as before. When I tried clearing the bed level data and just going off tower leveling, the calibration was worse than it was before. I have a feeling tower leveling is supposed to work in concert with bed leveling because Roland asked specifically, "How do you find the center?" in the GitHub ticket.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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The Github ticket I mentioned is not #120. It's this one: https://github.com/repetier/Repetier-Fi ... issues/167

I ran six tests with various configurations and put the results in that ticket. Here's the breaks: With the towers leveled using the endstop screws (NOT THE SOFTWARE ENDSTOP LEVELING) and the bed leveling, it's about as accurate as no calibration. Software endstop leveling by itself leads to worse performance than before. The height measurement consistently comes up a couple mm short whether the endstops are leveled in software or not. Additionally, the trick of changing rotation of the towers HAS to be used on my printer (increased Y tower from 330 to 331 degrees), so it will not correct for that.

Since you have to level the endstops by hand in order to get the PRINTER_RADIUS set up right, software endstop leveling doesn't work (maybe due to my technique), and even the bed height probing is broken, I can't recommend using bed leveling at this time unless everything else you try has failed. Rotating the towers in firmware got me perfect first layers, even at .08mm layer height. If you have done the "four-point calibration" and set up your printer radius correctly, but you notice the radius is only good on one tower (e.g., you set the printer radius with the X tower but the Y/Z towers come up too high or low) the answer is probably to rotate one of the towers in firmware. At this time I don't think anything short of a closed loop position sensor (like the magnetic field triangulation I mentioned above) will correct for weird arm lengths, towers at slightly wrong rotations, etc.

If Repetier had the ability to get the height measurement correct, that would be cool. The rest is a waste of time, at least for now, because the printer radius has to be correct and you can't get it without leveling the endstops by hand anyway.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

Hey 626pilot, thanks for the detailed responses here. I finally read everything you've referenced here and elsewhere and, as I'm certain you felt the same, was disappointed to see the results of the revised Repetier leveling functions. I haven't seen much discussion any other place, so we'll have to take your experience as representative for now.

I'm am quite delighted to read that the option of modifying your tower positions in the Configuration.h file has shown improvements. Now I'm not the only one :mrgreen: Unfortunately, that method still requires quite a bit of patience, as I'm sure you can attest.

I've been printing a bit more lately, but don't want to experiment too much as things are working nicely and the current stuff is for work. I'm currently in the build phase with the 3DR that I printed two months ago, so hopefully soon I'll have another Delta that I can use for experimentation.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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edward wrote:I'm am quite delighted to read that the option of modifying your tower positions in the Configuration.h file has shown improvements. Now I'm not the only one :mrgreen: Unfortunately, that method still requires quite a bit of patience, as I'm sure you can attest.
Let me see if I can distill it a little.

There are three kinds of error that can happen, and they are each caused by different phenomena that can interfere with the delta math. The three possible adjustments are the endstop screws, the tower rotation, and the printer radius. It's important to understand how each one plays into the delta calculations. (Not necessarily in the sense of the math, but concerning cause-and-effect relationships that explain how the error changes as the platform tracks across the entire surface.) There is also some counter-intuitive thinking that takes time to learn.

The endstop screws handle the rotation of the plane of the build surface first and foremost. The rotations must all be correct for the bed to be level. Imagine drawing a "T" across the build platform. You start out at the X tower, then draw a line to the center of the platform, and that's the vertical line of the T. Then you draw a perpendicular line across the top of that one, forming the horizontal line of the T, stretching from one side of the build platform to the other. That line becomes the axis about which the platform is rotated when you turn the X endstop screw. The phenomenon to be aware of is that RAISING the platform near a tower LOWERS it at the opposite edge, and vice versa.

The software tower rotation and printer radius determine how far the carriages move, and that amount increases with distance from the tower. This is because a carriage barely moves at all when the effector is close to the carriage's tower, but it must move progressively faster the further away it gets, or it won't push far enough to hold the effector at the same elevation. The reason a bad printer radius setting (on an otherwise perfectly calibrated machine) will cause lensing is that the carriage is either moving too far or coming up short. On the other hand, if a tower is at the wrong rotation, the printer will think it's starting from a different position than it really is, and then it will either move the carriage too far or not far enough depending on which direction the tower needs to be rotated.

Golden question: How do you tell the difference and what do you do about it?
  • If you find that the carriage lifts or dips close to one tower and does the opposite close to the opposite side of the build platform, it's probably the endstop screw on the tower it's close to. For example, if the carriage always dips near X and raises on the half of the platform opposite X, tightening the X endstop screw by the right amount should correct it.
  • If you find that the carriage lifts or dips close to one tower and does the opposite next to one of its neighbors, it's probably the rotation on the remaining tower. Look for Alpha A, B, and C in the EEPROM. You will see the values 210, 330, and 90. Reducing a number rotates the tower clockwise and increasing it rotates the tower counter-clockwise. You should only need to change the rotation by 1/2 to one degree. This is where you have to think of terms of pushing and pulling. On my printer, it was lifting near the X tower and dipping near Z. Y was OK, so I assumed it was the culprit. Changing Y's rotation from 330 to 331 fixed the problem, because that gave Repetier a better idea of where it was starting from. It then knew to move the Y tower a little faster when going towards X, and a little slower going towards Z.
  • If you're doing the PRINTER_RADIUS calibration according to the manual, and you find that it calibrates fine to one tower but not all of them, you should suspect that something's funny with the tower rotations.
There is also the delta arm length. I never messed with that to fix these problems. The one time I did was to fix a tendency to fail after the piece got to a certain height, and that did work. This is not something you usually need to mess with, and once you have it figured out it can stay the same even if you redo the tower alignment. I have Trick Laser arms, and they are a little different. With SeeMeCNC arms, you'd just use their recommended length and not change it unless you also have problems with your pieces getting knocked around by the nozzle or air-printing, and even then, only if it constantly happens at the same height.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by geneb »

626Pilot & Edward, if you'd be interested in writing an "extended calibration" procedure that can start from where my basic calibration ends, I'd be happy to include it in the manual with attribution.

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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by edward »

I certainly don't reject the idea of contributing...let's just say that there are one or two things on my list before I would get to that.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by 626Pilot »

I would like to have some coherent troubleshooting steps in the wiki, based on the above. I found someone in Troubleshooting who is having a problem similar to mine and I sent a link to this thread. If it works for that person, cool, and if not maybe we can figure out some refinements.

Once there is something coherent and well-structured in the wiki, I'd say just copy and paste it into the manual. There will probably be a bunch of minor changes along that path so I don't know if you'd want to take what's here now.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

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626Pilot wrote:I would like to have some coherent troubleshooting steps in the wiki, based on the above. I found someone in Troubleshooting who is having a problem similar to mine and I sent a link to this thread. If it works for that person, cool, and if not maybe we can figure out some refinements.

Once there is something coherent and well-structured in the wiki, I'd say just copy and paste it into the manual. There will probably be a bunch of minor changes along that path so I don't know if you'd want to take what's here now.

626Pilot, what's the link to the wiki? sorry, I'm new here, so I didn't even know there was a wiki!

I'm testing this method, with help of some schematics I draw and a chart (trying to do it repeatable and systematic). If it works, i will report there.

By the way, modifying the height in the tower via the parameters in config.h shouldn't be the same as of psychically adjusting the screws? :-|
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by dpmacri »

artexmg wrote: 626Pilot, what's the link to the wiki? sorry, I'm new here, so I didn't even know there was a wiki!
http://wiki.seemecnc.com

It's pretty new so there's not a ton out there...yet :-D
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by 626Pilot »

artexmg wrote: By the way, modifying the height in the tower via the parameters in config.h shouldn't be the same as of psychically adjusting the screws? :-|
That typo is funny.

Changing the Z tower height in EEPROM and adjusting all the endstop screws in precisely the same way are functionally equivalent. They both tell the printer how many steps it should take to get from the max height to the print surface if it was moving down in a straight line.
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by artexmg »

626Pilot wrote:
artexmg wrote: By the way, modifying the height in the tower via the parameters in config.h shouldn't be the same as of psychically adjusting the screws? :-|
That typo is funny.

Changing the Z tower height in EEPROM and adjusting all the endstop screws in precisely the same way are functionally equivalent. They both tell the printer how many steps it should take to get from the max height to the print surface if it was moving down in a straight line.

Great, I thought that, and that's what my "experiments" had shown so far, but I good to know that from somebody who knows better.

That is PSYCHICALLY GREAT! :-) :-)
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by artexmg »

artexmg wrote:
626Pilot wrote:
artexmg wrote: By the way, modifying the height in the tower via the parameters in config.h shouldn't be the same as of psychically adjusting the screws? :-|
That typo is funny.

Changing the Z tower height in EEPROM and adjusting all the endstop screws in precisely the same way are functionally equivalent. They both tell the printer how many steps it should take to get from the max height to the print surface if it was moving down in a straight line.

Great, I thought that (and that's what my "experiments" have shown so far), but it is good to know that from somebody who knows better.

That is PSYCHICALLY GREAT! :-) :-)
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by mcosman »

What am I missing? Is the rotation adjustment just tweaking the height of the towers in software to obtain a differential between towers?
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Re: Auto Level - Auto Calibration Talk

Post by cope413 »

No, the rotation adjustment tweaks the rotation of the towers :)

Ideally, each tower is perfectly squared to the center of the build plate, and 120 degrees from the other towers. That's not the case because of tolerances and other build factors, and if it's off enough, it affects accuracy. The rotational adjustment fixes that so that the machine knows exactly where it is and where it's supposed to be.
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