kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

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doctorgonzo
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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby doctorgonzo » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:12 pm

Do they stay on after assembly? Seems like it.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby doctorgonzo » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:21 pm

On another note, I bought a sessy little iPod in Shanghai not too long ago and just after unpacking, spilled a Sprite on it (don't drink the water!). They don''t hold water, or Sprite. I'm sure of that.

I think the idea of an acetone brush or vapor polish would make it work.

Doable.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby CJGerard » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:31 pm

The alignment jig would make the towers super stiff and square to the table.
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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby doctorgonzo » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:49 pm

Oh! it goes somewhere in the middle! Derp.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby kbob » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:22 am

My original plan was to make six of these. Put three of them just above the table, and three of them just under the top plate. Adjust them just so with the nuts on the threaded rod, then tighten the screws that bolt the towers to the base and to the top. After that's done, remove the jigs. (I assumed that they would just snap off.)

Now I'm thinking about how to make a version that can remain attached. Not only would it get everything aligned at the start, it would also make the printer a little stiffer. But I'll have to redesign the jigs. There is only about 0.3 inches under the Onyx, so a thinner threaded rod is needed, and it has to be right at the table surface. (Or I could raise the Onyx.) The top ones have to be integrated somehow into the idler mounts and/or hold the limit switches.

These problems are surmountable; I just need some time to work on them.

Right now I am AFP for the weekend, and when I get back I need to start firmware calibration all over again. When I installed a bootloader on my RAMBo, I lost all my EEPROM settings, and I had not saved them.

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Char on the Nozzle

Postby kbob » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:35 am

My nozzle has a lot of charred ABS on it. Is this normal? Some of it is flaking off and getting stuck in my prints.

If you clean your nozzle, how?

IMG_9797.JPG
Great green gobs of greasy, grimy

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Tower Alignment Jig

Postby kbob » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:53 am

I've been designing a jig to align the MAX's towers. I posted an OpenSCAD drawing of a draft version several days ago.

Here is the fifth iteration. It clamps onto the extrusion (lightly). It has a hole for a 1/4-20 threaded rod. With nuts on both ends, I should (in theory) be able to precisely adjust the distance between any two towers.

Tower Brace v5.png
One brace/jig/clamp.


Here it is attached to two towers.

IMG_9857.JPG
What were The Two Towers, anyway? Minas Tirith and Barad-dûr?


Here's a closeup. There is a little tab that fits into the extrusion slot for alignment. You can see the two nuts that position it on the rod. The rod is pointed straight at the centerline of the extrusion.

IMG_9858.JPG
Or Minas Morgul, maybe? We're gonna need Three Towers.


The plan is to make a delta of these at the bottom, just above the table, and another delta at the top. Loosen the screws clamping the towers to the T-slot nuts, then carefully adjust the rods until the towers are exactly PRINTER_RADIUS (198.25 mm) from the center. Then I'll tighten the T-slot screws and remove these braces.

That is the plan. We know what happens to plans that contact the enemy.

Here are the OpenSCAD and .STL files.

Tower Brace v5.scad
Tower Brace v5.scad
(4.08 KiB) Downloaded 116 times

Tower Brace v5.stl
Tower Brace v5.stl
(234.54 KiB) Downloaded 134 times

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Re: Char on the Nozzle

Postby Eaglezsoar » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:30 am

kbob wrote:My nozzle has a lot of charred ABS on it. Is this normal? Some of it is flaking off and getting stuck in my prints.

If you clean your nozzle, how?

IMG_9797.JPG

I would use a small brass wire brush and lightly use it to clean the nozzle area. The softness of the brass should not damage the nozzle.
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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby geneb » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:37 am

Acetone will also clean the nozzle quite well. Paper towel does wonders when wetted with acetone.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby doctorgonzo » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:08 pm

Acetone, aaah acetone, how I do love thee. Aside from alcohol, my second favorite liquid. Water comes in a close third.

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Re: Tower Alignment Jig

Postby 626Pilot » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:16 am

kbob wrote:I've been designing a jig to align the MAX's towers.

This is great. I was thinking of doing something similar last night.

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Alignment Issues

Postby kbob » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:17 am

The alignment quagmire grows.

Here are the constants in Configuration.h.

Code: Select all

    #define DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD 269.0 // mm
#define END_EFFECTOR_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET 33
#define CARRIAGE_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET 35
#define PRINTER_RADIUS 198.25


I've measured my arms. They are closer to 271 mm than 269.
I've measured the carriages' horizontal offset. Closer to 40 than 35.
Printer radius is also off. (Don't have the numbers handy.)
I have not measured the effector platform yet.

It's no wonder the firmware can't track the flat bed.

To be fair, I can print just fine in the center of the bed. The print height is only about 0.2 mm off at the edges of the bed. But the dimensions in the firmware aren't even close.

In other news, I calibrated the BSAC (link, link). It is off by about 0.15%, compared to my 150mm digital caliper and a steel ruler.

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Re: Tower Alignment Jig

Postby kbob » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:29 am

626Pilot wrote:
kbob wrote:I've been designing a jig to align the MAX's towers.

This is great. I was thinking of doing something similar last night.


You're welcome to start with my design. I made six clamps. I got some 1/4-20 threaded rod at Home Depot and cut it to 10" lengths. I haven't done the alignment yet because I found out I'll have to re-measure everything.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby JohnStack » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:05 am

This is a great idea! Of course, you're also on track to building your own Rostock with those rods!!!

I was thinking that I might use a modified version of your bracket for the laser measuring device I've been working on. The general idea is to turn on an LED when the head passes the beam. That way, you get a very true vertical measurement on your axis' while calibrating. Hmmm... Thanks!
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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby kbob » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:30 pm

JohnStack wrote:This is a great idea! Of course, you're also on track to building your own Rostock with those rods!!!

I was thinking that I might use a modified version of your bracket for the laser measuring device I've been working on. The general idea is to turn on an LED when the head passes the beam. That way, you get a very true vertical measurement on your axis' while calibrating. Hmmm... Thanks!


Cool!

if this is going to become a generally useful thing, I'll mention that if you vary clamp_center_thickness, you can make the clamp's grip stronger or weaker. clamp_side_thickness has much less effect.

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Measuring the MAX

Postby kbob » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:17 am

This post contains math. If you don't like math, look away now.

I mentioned a couple of days ago that some of the measurements on my Rostock MAX don't match the values in RepetierMAX's Configuration.h. I've spent several hours measuring, remeasuring, and calculating, and I have some numbers. Here is my report.

Methodology Notes

All calculated values are given with a precision of one micron. That's obviously bogus — my best caliper's precision is 10 microns. I just used high precision to avoid additional error from calculations. I'll list the approximate error magnitudes where I can; if it's not listed, assume it's better than the listed errors. (-:

I will not go into detail about how I got each measurement. I approached some of them obliquely. (-: (Distance from unmarked center of bed to center of extrusion?)

And I did calibrate the BSAC, as mentioned earlier.

The Parameters

Here are the original constants from RepetierMAX.

Code: Select all

#define DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD 269.0 // mm
#define END_EFFECTOR_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET 33
#define CARRIAGE_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET 35
#define PRINTER_RADIUS 198.25
#define DELTA_RADIUS (PRINTER_RADIUS-END_EFFECTOR_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET-CARRIAGE_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET+0.0)


And here's the canonical diagram. Marlin's DELTA_EFFECTOR_OFFSET is Repetier's END_EFFECTOR_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET, and Marlin's DELTA_SMOOTH_ROD_OFFSET is our PRINTER_RADIUS.

Fullscreen capture 1192012 90008 AM.jpg
(Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet)


The Measurements

I measured DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD at 270.029 mm, +0.104 mm, -0.335 mm. One of my arms was ~0.4 mm shorter than the others. If you discard that arm, the other five are all within 0.1 mm of one another.

END_EFFECTOR_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET came to 31.638 mm, ± about 0.1 mm.

CARRiAGE_HORIZONTAL_OFFSET is 37.970 mm ± 0.1 mm.

PRINTER_RADIUS I measured just above the bed and also just below the top. The average of all measurements came to 200.823 mm. The minimum was 200.741, and the max was 200.972, a difference of 0.231 mm. (These measurements should be accurate to about ±0.04 mm.) I have not yet used my alignment jig to square the towers up, but I will, and PRINTER_RADIUS will change slightly.

Using these numbers, DELTA_RADIUS is calculated at 131.216.

The two numbers that are actually used by Repetier firmware are DELTA_RADIUS and DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD. DELTA_RADIUS is off by ~0.97 mm. DELTA_DIAGONAL_ROD is off by 1.03 mm.

My best calibration efforts without changing the firmware constants left me with the hot end about 0.2 mm lower in the center of the bed than at the edges. I honestly don't know whether the errors I measured would account for that -- I find it hard to reason about how changes in rod length and printer radius affect the delta warp.

Anyway, that's where I am. Suggestions welcome.

(BTW, as a software guy, I'm fascinated and horrified at how hard it is to pin any of these measurements down. Pick up the caliper, put it right back down, and get a different reading. I did what I could to find repeatable ways to measure these things. Measuring the effector was hardest.)

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby kbob » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Following up on myself... Early this morning I wrote up all the facts, but didn't summarize.

Conclusion

The dimensions in the firmware are all wrong. Not drastically wrong, but they're all a little bit off.

  • Delta arm length: off by 1.0 mm.
  • Effector offset: off by 1.4 mm.
  • Carriage offset: off by 3.0 mm.
  • Printer radius: off by 2.6 mm.

That bugs me -- it indicates that SeeMeCNC was just hacking at it until it appeared to work. Either that or there are deeper reasons not to use the actual dimensions that I don't understand yet. Or maybe some sizes changed between the kickstarter generation and my May, 2013 kit. But still. How can they all be off by that much? Bad data for one or two dimensions would be understandable. Not good, but understandable.

And there is good news. The good news is that the errors all more or less cancel each other out. Delta radius, which is derived from the last three, is only 1.0 mm. That's 0.7% undersize. And the delta arm length is also undersize by 0.3%. So the overall misalignment is, uh, something smallish less than half a percent. (I am not going to do the trig right now.)

Of course, if you're trying to get a thin layer of plastic to adhere to the whole bed, you need much better accuracy than that.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby ApacheXMD » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:35 pm

So when you used your measured values, how did the prints turn out?

When i measured the stock arms, they were spot on at 269mm.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby kbob » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:12 am

ApacheXMD wrote:So when you used your measured values, how did the prints turn out?

When i measured the stock arms, they were spot on at 269mm.


You should ask that question in the future tense. (-:

I removed the effector and arms to measure them, and will probably not get another chance to work on the printer until next week. :-(

I wonder if my arms are "special".

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby CJGerard » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:01 am

kbob wrote:
I wonder if my arms are "special".



HEHE they rode on the seemecnc short bus, we are all special in one way or another.
Boss 1 - "I'm tiered of arguing with you! You come up with the MOST Stupid-Outlandish-Impossible way to do something & then you walk out into the shop and DO IT and IT WORKS. Its no fun anymore."
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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby doctorgonzo » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:23 am

I believe the proper spelling is "speshul."

Could this issue have anything to do with heat cycles or stress causing the stock arms to "drift" in length over time?

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby foshon » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:38 am

CJGerard wrote:
kbob wrote:
I wonder if my arms are "special".



HEHE they rode on the seemecnc short bus, we are all special in one way or another.



Did they have to wear the helmet?
Purple = sarcasm

Please do a board search before posting your question, many have been answered with very time consuming detail already.

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Re: kbob and Impulse, the Rostock MAX

Postby lordbinky » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:29 am

foshon wrote:
CJGerard wrote:
kbob wrote:
I wonder if my arms are "special".



HEHE they rode on the seemecnc short bus, we are all special in one way or another.



Did they have to wear the helmet?


All but one did, that's why it was ~0.4 mm shorter.

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My Dial Indicator Mount

Postby kbob » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:26 am

I have a cheap dial indicator. I got it at Horr'ble Fright last year for another project. http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-tra ... r-623.html

I designed this nifty little mount for it. I designed and printed it back in June, but didn't get a photo of it on the printer until tonight.

Dial Indicator SCAD.png
OpenSCAD FTW


Here's the real thing.

IMG_9881.JPG
Not a render.


I made the central hole a little undersized. The three slots around it let the hole stretch to make a nice friction fit around the indicator's shaft. I'm starting to figure out how to design for ABS.

You can also see the hair scrunchies that tension the delta arms. There are three more up by the CheapSkates.

Here is the OpenSCAD source file.

Dial Indicator Mount.scad
Dial Indicator Mount - OpenSCAD
(1.65 KiB) Downloaded 152 times


My printer is back together now. I aligned the towers using the alignment jigs, I've changed the printer dimensions in the firmware, and yes, I've used this dial indicator to see how well it's aligned. I haven't had a chance to print anything yet.

More on that later; right now I just want to tell you that using a dial indicator to adjust the limit switches is about 20 times faster than sliding a piece of paper under the nozzle.

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I'm Back!

Postby kbob » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:35 am

Did you miss me?

On July 17th, I took the delta arms off my printer. That started an odyssey of calibration, rebuilding, repairing, and upgrading that finally ended this morning at 12:15 AM when I successfully printed a calibration cube.

Here is the cube that I printed. It measures 20.00 mm across.

IMG_9896.JPG
(Desk inlay not included.)


I typed in about four pages of text describing the ordeal in great detail. I edited it for two hours, then SeeMeCNC's web site threw the whole thing on the floor because I attached an oversized image. Bah. I'll repost parts of it someday. It's late now.


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