what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Having a problem? Post it here and someone will be along shortly to help
Dad003
Plasticator
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:56 pm

what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Dad003 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:02 am

I would like to know what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple and what i will need to change in the configuration ,

parts i need to buy ,

im already looking to make the upgrade have order a thermocouple but look like i need more than just that

User avatar
Captain Starfish
Printmaster!
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:24 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Captain Starfish » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:37 am

You'll also need an AD597 thermocouple amplifier board (LadyAda do them), you'll need to identify another pin on the RAMBo to use as the signal line, you'll need to change configuration.h in the firmware to identify that pin for the thermocouple and to tell it to use the AD597 instead of a thermistor.

When ordering, DON'T buy an I2C or SPI variant of the thermocouple board: the wiring runs are too long, too high impedance and too noisy for high speed digital comms. Get the clunky old AD597 and things should work ok.

DarrenAnton
Printmaster!
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:38 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by DarrenAnton » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:03 pm

Do I understand this right?

If I Get this
E3D External Thermocouple Board v1.0
http://www.filastruder.com/collections/ ... board-v1-0

And this
E3D Type K Thermocouple (Welded Tip)
http://www.filastruder.com/collections/ ... welded-tip

I can hook it up to my RAMBo 1.3L (Rostock Max v2) some how and change some setting and it will work?

Is it that easy?
(What are the best step to doing this)

The reason I ask is I just broke like my 4th Thermistor

2 my my old Seemecnc hot end that came with it, then it got trashed then I replaced that fast with a E3D V6 and just broke my 2nd one on that. So not a happy camper right now. I was trying to get my hot end temp fixed using this post here
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5562

I could not get my Meter Thermocouple wire down from the top of the E3D V6 so I had to take the Nozzle off and that was the end of that :)



I'm not interested in higher temp, just interested and making thing's easier the wires on the Thermistor's are a real pain in the @@@@@

Thanks !!

User avatar
Eaglezsoar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 7185
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Eaglezsoar » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:47 am

Captain Starfish wrote:You'll also need an AD597 thermocouple amplifier board (LadyAda do them), you'll need to identify another pin on the RAMBo to use as the signal line, you'll need to change configuration.h in the firmware to identify that pin for the thermocouple and to tell it to use the AD597 instead of a thermistor.

When ordering, DON'T buy an I2C or SPI variant of the thermocouple board: the wiring runs are too long, too high impedance and too noisy for high speed digital comms. Get the clunky old AD597 and things should work ok.

Perhaps you could write a short tutorial on how to do this :)

SoCalSteve
Prints-a-lot
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by SoCalSteve » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:29 am

DarrenAnton wrote:Do I understand this right?

If I Get this
E3D External Thermocouple Board v1.0
http://www.filastruder.com/collections/ ... board-v1-0

And this
E3D Type K Thermocouple (Welded Tip)
http://www.filastruder.com/collections/ ... welded-tip

I can hook it up to my RAMBo 1.3L (Rostock Max v2) some how and change some setting and it will work?

Is it that easy?

This is exactly what i was thinking!

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:03 pm

Just ordered parts for this. I can do the wiring and install portion while taking pictures and spelling out those steps, but I don't know where to begin with finding an extra pin and changing the firmware... Can someone else spell that out for dummies (me) so that together we can create a complete how-to?

User avatar
Captain Starfish
Printmaster!
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:24 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Captain Starfish » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:38 pm

Eaglezsoar wrote:Perhaps you could write a short tutorial on how to do this :)


Don't know if forgetful or royal smartarse :lol:

If you search you'll find the beginnings of a tutorial on exactly how NOT to do it. I went down the SPI route, gave up, back tracked, tried I2C, too many noise issues, moved onto the 597 plan and had some unrelated issue which had me at the "bugger this, E3D time" and the thermistor's working perfectly on the new hot-end so I've had no push to change it.

There WAS someone who posted up his search for the right pin - you cannot re-use the existing temp pin as the bias component network plays merry hob with the AD597 output.

Download the Atmel 2560 datasheet, find the ADC input pins.
Download the schematic for the RAMBo version you have, find which of these pins are taken out to the expansion port and aren't used by the LCD or control knob.
Pick one. Find out which pin is used for the existing thermistor input too.
Find out which analogue input they both are on the Arduino environment (there will be a mapping document on the interwebs somewhere).
Then it's a matter of digging through the Repetier firmware source and replacing any references to the old with the new.

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:14 pm

Jimustanguitar wrote:Just ordered parts for this. I can do the wiring and install portion while taking pictures and spelling out those steps, but I don't know where to begin with finding an extra pin and changing the firmware... Can someone else spell that out for dummies (me) so that together we can create a complete how-to?



I'd be happy to help with the pins and firmware side of things. As far as the wiring goes, the analog connector is the 8-pin (4x2) header between the thermistor connectors and the LCD adapter board. Pins 1 (+5V) and 2 (Gnd) of that header can used to provide power to the thermocouple interface and pin 3 or 4 used for the analog signal. I'll take a look at the firmware and come back with those changes.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Captain Starfish
Printmaster!
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:24 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Captain Starfish » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:45 pm

^^ This guy is a champion.

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:30 pm

So for the purpose of this example, we'll figure the analog out from the thermocouple amplifier is being connected to pin #3 of the RAMBo analog header. And I'll figure we're using an AD8495 thermocouple amplifier chip as that is what is used on the analog board available from Adafruit and they rock! Lastly, I'm basing this on Repetier v0.91 firmware, where we need to make changes in the Configuration.h file and then upload the altered firmware.

line 187 is where the temperature sensing method for the first extruder is defined.

With a stock thermistor, it reads #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_TYPE 97

The AD8495 code is 60. You can see it listed a few lines up comments. Change line 187 to read #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_TYPE 60

Next we need to describe where the temperature signal is connected.

On a stock RMV2, the hot end thermistor is plugged into the RAMBo at temp input 0.

line 189 will say #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_PIN TEMP_0_PIN

It looks to me like the RAMBo analog header doesn't have defined specifically, so we need to call out our connection based on standard Arduino names. Pin #3 of RAMBo's analog header is actually analog input #6 on the ATMEGA2560 chip.

Change line 189 to read #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_PIN 6


Those should be the only changes needed.
Last edited by Earthbound on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:43 pm

That's awesome, thank you very much!

Is the filastruder E3D part an I2C or SPI board, or does it work the same as your example?
http://reprap.org/wiki/ExtThermoCouple_1.0 is where the E3D links lead you.

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:00 am

The one in the link is analog like the Adafruit board. The linked part uses an AD597 chip instead of the AD8495. It has a different output profile, but appears to be a close cousin of the AD595. For devices using AD595 or AD597, set line 187 to type 100 instead of 60.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

SoCalSteve
Prints-a-lot
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by SoCalSteve » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:33 am

Earthbound wrote:The AD8495 code is 60.

Is the "Type-K-Thermocouple" by E3D the same as AD8495?

Do we need the Thermocouple Board as well?

If so, do the first two pins go into the same place as the thermistor and the last wire connect to aux slot as noted above?

Thank you for the help!

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:15 am

SoCalSteve wrote:Is the "Type-K-Thermocouple" by E3D the same as AD8495?

Do we need the Thermocouple Board as well?

If so, do the first two pins go into the same place as the thermistor and the last wire connect to aux slot as noted above?

Thank you for the help!


No, yes, NO! and you're welcome. There is a tutorial in the works...

The thermocouple replaces the thermistor, and gets mounted to hot end. Unlike a thermistor, the thermocouple cannot be wired directly to the RAMBo/controller. The thermocouple requires some additional electronics. One option is the Thermocouple Board that you linked to. AD8495 is the ID of the chip used on Adafruit's similar board. So you need a thermocouple and the accessory board. Thermocouple wires to accessory board as shown in wiki on that board's page. Board wires to RAMBo in manner I described a few posts above.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
jdurand
Printmaster!
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:41 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by jdurand » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:16 am

The thermocouple replaces the thermistor.

The board is the "cold end" for the thermocouple and converts the signal from that to an analog voltage that the Rambo can use.
Standing on the edge of reality... (me)
Quando omni flunkus moritati (Red Green)
Let no man belong to another that can belong to himself. (Paracelsus)
All things are poison and nothing is without poison; only the dose makes a thing not a poison. (Ibid.)

SoCalSteve
Prints-a-lot
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by SoCalSteve » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:23 am

Earthbound wrote:
SoCalSteve wrote:Is the "Type-K-Thermocouple" by E3D the same as AD8495?

Do we need the Thermocouple Board as well?

If so, do the first two pins go into the same place as the thermistor and the last wire connect to aux slot as noted above?

Thank you for the help!
No, yes, NO! and you're welcome. There is a tutorial in the works...

The thermocouple replaces the thermistor, and gets mounted to hot end. Unlike a thermistor, the thermocouple cannot be wired directly to the RAMBo/controller. The thermocouple requires some additional electronics. One option is the Thermocouple Board that you linked to. AD8495 is the ID of the chip used on Adafruit's similar board. So you need a thermocouple and the accessory board. Thermocouple wires to accessory board as shown in wiki on that board's page. Board wires to RAMBo in manner I described a few posts above.

Thank you for the clarification! I also read this (viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6986&p=55490&hilit=external+thermocouple#p55536). was their an issue with their set up or just unlucky with the thermocouple?

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:50 pm

SoCalSteve wrote:I also read this (viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6986&p=55490&hilit=external+thermocouple#p55536). was their an issue with their set up or just unlucky with the thermocouple?


Looking at the pictures in that thread, I'd guess interference from the extruder stepper motor wires. They are tie-wrapped in a bundle with the analog wires. Not ideal.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

SoCalSteve
Prints-a-lot
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by SoCalSteve » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:35 am

good call. you guys are amazing!

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:43 pm

Earthbound wrote:I'd be happy to help with the pins and firmware side of things. As far as the wiring goes, the analog connector is the 8-pin (4x2) header between the thermistor connectors and the LCD adapter board. Pins 1 (+5V) and 2 (Gnd) of that header can used to provide power to the thermocouple interface and pin 3 or 4 used for the analog signal. I'll take a look at the firmware and come back with those changes.


So correct me if I'm wrong... Do I have the correct header highlighted? What makes it a 4x2 header instead of (I'm guessing) an 8x1? I'm worried that I have the wrong one.

Also, is #1 indicated by the print on the board that I have the arrow pointing at? It seems a bit odd that the text orientation is 90 degrees different than the "analog ext" label... Perhaps the "JP1" text at the bottom indicates pin #1 instead?

Image

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:45 pm

Jimustanguitar wrote:
Earthbound wrote:I'd be happy to help with the pins and firmware side of things. As far as the wiring goes, the analog connector is the 8-pin (4x2) header between the thermistor connectors and the LCD adapter board. Pins 1 (+5V) and 2 (Gnd) of that header can used to provide power to the thermocouple interface and pin 3 or 4 used for the analog signal. I'll take a look at the firmware and come back with those changes.


So correct me if I'm wrong... Do I have the correct header highlighted? What makes it a 4x2 header instead of (I'm guessing) an 8x1? I'm worried that I have the wrong one.

Also, is #1 indicated by the print on the board that I have the arrow pointing at? It seems a bit odd that the text orientation is 90 degrees different than the "analog ext" label... Perhaps the "JP1" text at the bottom indicates pin #1 instead?

Image


You have found the correct header, which on your version (v1.0/1.1) is a 8x1 row. The later (v1.2/1.3) has a 4x2 header.

[edit 2/17/15] Discovered that the 8x1 header on early boards is a source of confusion. In the image above, the silkscreen shows pin #1 at the "top". You can see the "petals" surrounding the pad of the adjacent pin, which make it recognizable as GND. The schematic for this version says that pin #7 is GND, so silkscreen numbering is reversed from schematic's.


For v1.0 RAMBo, pinout on that header according to the schematic is:

pin 8 = +5V (SILKSCREENED as PIN 1)
pin 7 = GND
pin 6 = analog input 3


so make the assignment as #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_PIN 3
Last edited by Earthbound on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:36 pm

Earthbound wrote:My earlier identification of pins is for the later (current) RAMBo. Your v1.0 board has a slightly different layout. You have found the correct header, which on your version is a 8x1 row. Pin 1 is at the arrow.

For v1.0 RAMBo, pinout on that header is:

pin 8 = +5V
pin 7 = GND
pin 6 = A3 (analog input)

so make the assignment as #define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_PIN A3



That makes a lot more sense...

So the first time I was trying this (and had the wrong pin called out in the firmware) I was getting a reading of something like 494 and then it would go to default.

After changing it to pin 3 in the firmware, I'm at more like 360 before it goes to default. (if I make it type 60 instead of 100, my reading goes into the 700's)

I don't understand where you say to use pins 6, 7, and 8... I should be using the top 3 pins or the bottom 3 pins? (they both give back a value of 360 and go to default) but I've only got 5v between the top two pins, the bottom 2 (pins 7 and 8) have less potential between them...


Thank you very very much for the help!

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:07 am

Referring to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4542&p=45576&

Should I be getting my power elsewhere on the board?

(if it helps, I'm using a Rambo 1.1B)
Image

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:50 am

Should be OK to get thermocouple board power from the analog header.

Hope the annotated picture makes it easier. I've done one for the early (v1.0/1.1) boards and one for the later (v1.2/1.3) boards.

jmg.png
V1.0/1.1 (the original image here was incorrect. Look two posts down in this thread for correct layout.

1_2.jpg
V1.2/1.3
Last edited by Earthbound on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Jimustanguitar » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:03 am

There must be some other variant that's not evident on the Rambo Wiki... I definitely don't have +5v on the pins you specify. I measure that voltage across 1&2, but not 7&8... Weird.

Earthbound
Printmaster!
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:39 am

Re: what i need to upgrade to a thermocouple ?

Post by Earthbound » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:17 pm

Jimustanguitar wrote:There must be some other variant that's not evident on the Rambo Wiki... I definitely don't have +5v on the pins you specify. I measure that voltage across 1&2, but not 7&8... Weird.


After a closer look at the image of the v1.0 board, I realized that the silkscreen and schematic disagree on the location of pin#1. The "flower" around the adjacent pad (GND) is a tell.

Suddenly the flipped silkscreen almost makes sense.

Here are the correct connections for v1.0/1.1 boards (number on silkscreen, not schematic) #1 at top.

1 = 5v
2 = GND
3 = analog input 3
4 = analog input 4
5 = analog input 5
6 = analog input 6
7 = analog input 7
8 = analog input 8
Last edited by Earthbound on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Trust no quote from the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln

Post Reply

Return to “Troubleshooting”