Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

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Tinyhead
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Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:55 pm

I'm losing it here. I just can't seem to get ABS to stick to the build plate!

Black ABS from filaments.ca
Bed temp 92C - I can't get it any higher
Nozzle temp - I've tried between 220 and 240 with the same results every time

I have tried using:
-Blue Painter's tape
-Elmers glue
-ABS juice
-Yelling

Further, the ABS filament won't dissolve in acetone. When I put it in there, it just gets a bit gooey and turns the acetone pink. I had to use some ABS plastic from another object to make the juice. Also printing anywhere above 230C causes smoke from the extruder nozzle. I know this stuff isn't PLA as it has totally different physical characteristics. I've been able to get one or two items to magically stay in place till the end (small parts) and those parts physically turn out beautifully... I just can't get whatever this stuff is to actually stick to the bed!

I'm at a loss. I'm hoping someone might have come across something like this before and might have some tips.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by bvandiepenbos » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:32 am

use Hairspray on a clean glass build plate.
Aquanet superhold unscented works great.
http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/aqua-n ... 27-product

also, is your Z height set correctly?
If nozzle is to far away on your first layer that will cause adhesion issues.
as will being to close, to close pinches off flow of plastic.
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Captain Starfish » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:38 am

Once I sorted my z height issues, Elmers did the trick beautifully on a 50ºC bed. The other thing I did was crank up the first layer extrusion ratio to 120% and set the 1st layer height to 0.25.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:58 am

I have yet to try the hairspray. I think that's next on the list.

I have my Z height set accurately. I can throw down some great looking lines, but after a few minutes the object begins to curl on the edges and it's game over. Even when it's first put on the bed, I can take a razor and check and it's barely holding on right off the bat. I just tried Kapton tape as well and had the same result. Tried raft, tried brim... oh the tears.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by joecnc2006 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:33 am

painters tape with elmers glue works. your z height will change 0.1mm

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Christian79 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:05 am

1) I will stress both "Z Hight calibration" and "Individual Tower Hight Calibration" are crucial to this process. I thought I did a "good" job on the calibration part but still had lift issues.

2) The other item that stands out to my is your filament reaction in acetone. It should dissolve pretty fast and I see no reason it would turn the acetone pink.

3) As far as the smoke, if the hotend is stock and new, they tend to smoke a bit from the assembly process. But your ABS should NOT be smoking at 230C.


Tinyhead wrote:I'm losing it here. I just can't seem to get ABS to stick to the build plate!

Black ABS from filaments.ca
Bed temp 92C - I can't get it any higher
Nozzle temp - I've tried between 220 and 240 with the same results every time

I have tried using:
-Blue Painter's tape
-Elmers glue
-ABS juice
-Yelling

Further, the ABS filament won't dissolve in acetone. When I put it in there, it just gets a bit gooey and turns the acetone pink. I had to use some ABS plastic from another object to make the juice. Also printing anywhere above 230C causes smoke from the extruder nozzle. I know this stuff isn't PLA as it has totally different physical characteristics. I've been able to get one or two items to magically stay in place till the end (small parts) and those parts physically turn out beautifully... I just can't get whatever this stuff is to actually stick to the bed!

I'm at a loss. I'm hoping someone might have come across something like this before and might have some tips.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by McSlappy » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:12 am

Sounds like you have a dodgy ABS. Where's it from?
How long would a 2 strand loop take to dissolve if put into a jar of acetone?
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:40 am

McSlappy wrote:Sounds like you have a dodgy ABS. Where's it from?
How long would a 2 strand loop take to dissolve if put into a jar of acetone?


I put some pieces into some acetone last week. 80% of it is still in there. As I mentioned, I put in some other ABS and it started to dissolve within minutes. I'm almost more curious at this point as to what this material might be. It's not PLA and it doesn't appear to be ABS. Or, if it is, it might be heavily diluted with something.

I was actually able to print one of the two pieces I was trying to make (the 25mm blower fan from repables). I tossed some cardboard on the heat bed and let it run for a good long time. I was able to get the temperature up to about 108C. Printed straight onto the Kapton with nothing else and used a brim. I was also quite angry and cranked up the temperature to 240 and turned the speed up to 175%. I wanted to go to bed. It finished and in record time, but it would have been nicer if it was done at regular speed. As soon as the hot end lifted, I grabbed it and it just came free like nothing. I was probably just lucky again.

As far as the Z height and individual tower calibration, I really took my time doing all that during the build. I have my Delta Radius clocked in perfect as far as the manual described. I might have a problem with the nozzle being too far from the build plate, but I would hope not. It's right down there and my first layer extrusion width looks like it's pressing on there good. I'll have a look at it tomorrow if I get a chance. I'm also going to try and pick up a bottle of that hairspray. It makes sense that ABS juice doesn't work with this filament as it doesn't attempt to dissolve/react with it in any way.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Christian79 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:30 am

Here are the results of the filament I use. Mine is Black 1.75mm from Botfeeder.ca

45mm of filament and standard nail polish remover (Note: I did agitate the solution during the test)

photo 1-4.JPG


After 2 Minutes

photo 2-5.JPG


After 4 Minutes

photo 3-4.JPG


After 6 Minutes

photo 4-2.JPG


After 8 Minutes

photo 5.JPG
Last edited by Christian79 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Glacian22 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:30 am

The ABS smoking at 230 is worrisome, you really might have a bad roll of filament. I've heard that some of the dodgier sources may mix in other plastics, so your ABS may have some impurities. Do you have any other filament to try?

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Chrissi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:23 am

Also the Elmer's glue, don't take that too literally, it's not the white glue in the bottle but glue stick like a big chapstik. I use one from Office Depot made by Avery, the label people.
The ABS should give off a slight odor when it is extruded, smells like a melting Styrofoam cup.
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by AndThenSome09 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:40 am

Maybe try going to the hardware store and get some pure acetone as I think even with the 100% acetone nail polish remover they still add other stuff to it, it wasn't untill I took a trip to the hardware store that I was able to make some real "Juice". ABS Juice is the best for adhesion and warping or curling as it essentially puts a layer of ABS down first for it to stick to.
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:51 am

Glacian22 wrote:The ABS smoking at 230 is worrisome, you really might have a bad roll of filament. I've heard that some of the dodgier sources may mix in other plastics, so your ABS may have some impurities. Do you have any other filament to try?


No, this is my only roll of ABS sadly.

Chrissi wrote:Also the Elmer's glue, don't take that too literally, it's not the white glue in the bottle but glue stick like a big chapstik. I use one from Office Depot made by Avery, the label people.
The ABS should give off a slight odor when it is extruded, smells like a melting Styrofoam cup.


The one I have is the Elmer's All Purpose Glue Stick. It's white. I'm seeing that I should have one that's purple. I'll pick one up today.

AndThenSome09 wrote:Maybe try going to the hardware store and get some pure acetone as I think even with the 100% acetone nail polish remover they still add other stuff to it, it wasn't untill I took a trip to the hardware store that I was able to make some real "Juice". ABS Juice is the best for adhesion and warping or curling as it essentially puts a layer of ABS down first for it to stick to.


The acetone is from a hardware store. Big metal container. As I mentioned though, this material doesn't seem to react to it at all. It's black, but it will just make the acetone a (still very clear) pink. When I put other ABS parts in it, it melts just fine and I get the cloudy 'juice'. When I put that solution on the build plate, it does nothing as I don't think it's chemically bonding to this filament material.

Christian79 wrote:Here are the results of the filament I use.


Thanks Christian79. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. I'll have to use this test as a baseline once I get some proper ABS.

I'm still going to try the purple Elmer's and hairspray before I give up on this roll. The prints (that DO print) come out far too nice and smooth to just toss the roll aside as junk.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by AndThenSome09 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:05 pm

That's really weird, I've heard once before someone saying they had bought some ABS that just would not dissolve in acetone. Weird, must have some sort of Strange filler in it or something
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Chrissi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:39 pm

The one time I forgot to use the glue stick I had just cleaned the glass squeaky clean, the part stuck so well it pealed the base layer off in places.
What was remarkable was the beautiful tight surface finish I got on the intact portion of the print...now if I could find something that smooth but sticky?
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:13 pm

AndThenSome09 wrote:That's really weird, I've heard once before someone saying they had bought some ABS that just would not dissolve in acetone. Weird, must have some sort of Strange filler in it or something


Yeah. It's a bummer. I emailed Filament.ca and they said that I may have accidentally received a "spool made from material from an older supplier which we no longer use". I sent then in pictures of the label and hopefully they can tell me something. It says ABS-H on the label. Maybe that -H means something. Didn't come up with much in Google.

Chrissi wrote:The one time I forgot to use the glue stick I had just cleaned the glass squeaky clean, the part stuck so well it pealed the base layer off in places.
What was remarkable was the beautiful tight surface finish I got on the intact portion of the print...now if I could find something that smooth but sticky?


You're just making me jealous with your 'sticking too well' problem. :)

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by McSlappy » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:52 am

I bet the H stands for Horrible or Hahadontsellthis. Sounds like you have some non-abs material there :(

Have you seen the thread on PEI bed material? This is probably my next upgrade :)
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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:12 pm

Turns out I do have a roll of not so good material!

From Filaments.ca
I am sending you a different black ABS 1.75 today.
I'm not sure why the warehouse sent you this one, but I apologize and you will be a getting a different one.

Nice and fast service. I was pretty pumped.

McSlappy wrote:I bet the H stands for Horrible or Hahadontsellthis. Sounds like you have some non-abs material there :(

Have you seen the thread on PEI bed material? This is probably my next upgrade :)


I saw the post for the PEI a while ago. Looks promising but I'm pretty broke, so it'll have to revisit that at a later time.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by 0rionN00b » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:23 pm

I would very much recommend considering the PEI.

In fact, i'm so pumped at the quality, i'm getting quotes on it in bulk, to offer it pre-adhered to a glass (or aluminum) disc, so folks can grab at a decent price point.

Seriously, the $100 spent on PEI is the equivalent of buying a new printer. It's completely night & day different!

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by aehM_Key » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:11 am

Try 2/3 beer and 1/3 Isopropyl alcohol.
My parts stick quite good! (Also my bedtemp is 120°C [24V power supply])
Other advantages: Easy cleaning with water, skincontact is no problem ...and it smells good ;)

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by sandy » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:46 pm

I've gotten really good results with Aquanet super hold hairspray on both PET tape and glass.

Things to consider, is it drafty near your printer? I've had prints delaminate when there was a draft blowing on the print - it always curled up at a specific corner.

Try slowing the print way down for the first 5 or so layers, does it make a difference?

Is you hot bed surface clean before you apply the glue-stick or hairspray?

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:48 pm

I'd like to do the PEI bed, but I'm broke. On friday my water heater decided to split and soak a portion of my basement.

I tried finding that Aquanet hairspray since so many people recommend using it, but I went to a couple stores and nobody seems carry it.

Print bed was always clean and there are no drafts. As I mentioned in my last post, this material is a bum roll of some weird material. Hopefully my luck changes when I actually get a roll of ABS.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Lanty » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:13 pm

I just got my Max v2 built and did some printing over the weekend (just getting my feet wet).

I had one part that came off the bed 3 times in a row (I was using the purple Elmer’s glue stick on the glass surface).
I gave the glass a good cleaning and sprayed it with hair spray and set the speed to 50% and it stuck fine. Sounds like you may have some bad material though.

Good luck and let us know if you find the solution.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by Tinyhead » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:35 pm

Lanty wrote:Good luck and let us know if you find the solution.


I mentioned a few posts ago that the roll they provided was sent to me accidentally from a provider that they no longer carry. For obvious reasons I'm guessing. New roll is currently in transit.

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Re: Why oh why can't I get ABS to stick?!

Post by 0rionN00b » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:59 pm

Tinyhead wrote:I'd like to do the PEI bed, but I'm broke. On friday my water heater decided to split and soak a portion of my basement.

I tried finding that Aquanet hairspray since so many people recommend using it, but I went to a couple stores and nobody seems carry it.

Print bed was always clean and there are no drafts. As I mentioned in my last post, this material is a bum roll of some weird material. Hopefully my luck changes when I actually get a roll of ABS.


I found Aquanet unscented at my local Wallgreens.. bought all 5 cans on the shelf.

After finding PEI, I use hairspray only when I'm doing tall columns with tiny footprint (right now doing a 3x3 mm column that's 22mm tall with intricate parts - hairspray helps a tiny bit extra)..

The cost of a sheet of PEI will WAY pay for itself when you quit buying tape, glue, hairspray and beer, not to mention the lost plastic due to failed parts.......

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