Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

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Mac The Knife
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by Mac The Knife » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:39 am

Have you printed anything yet?
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:40 am

That's not going to make a difference in anything, really.

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:46 am

Mac The Knife wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:39 am
Have you printed anything yet?
Yes, just have first layer issues further out near the edges of the bed
geneb wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:40 am
That's not going to make a difference in anything, really.

g.
Has anyone tried? I've seen industrial drives eat belts that way.

I guess I'll order some new stock idlers and see if anything improves.

Thanks again
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by Mac The Knife » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:12 pm

"Yes, just have first layer issues further out near the edges of the bed"
On my RMv2, I blamed that on tower rotation changes, and blamed it on humidity changes.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:10 am

Replaced the idlers and bearings with new stock parts. Belts and pulleys with gates parts. Very slight improvement.

Printed a delta calibration part and found the dimensions to be within reason. 60mm was dead on inline with the X tower, and about .2mm short inline with the y and z towers.

As good as it's getting. I've beat this horse too long. Thanks everyone for the input.

Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:47 am

Thanks for the tip on the 8 factor calibration. It solved an issue I've had with a frankestein v3.2 I built. :)

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:34 am

geneb wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:47 am
Thanks for the tip on the 8 factor calibration. It solved an issue I've had with a frankestein v3.2 I built. :)

g.
Good deal, glad someone learned something here.
Thanks for your input.
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by SoCalSteve » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:00 pm

Have you verified that your arm length is correct in the programming?

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:28 pm

SoCalSteve wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:00 pm
Have you verified that your arm length is correct in the programming?
Many times
Thanks
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:13 am

To eliminate the issue of the arms being so horizontal at the bed edges I got the longer 340.5mm CF rods and gave them a try. No real improvement
Screenshot_20191121_090445.png
So a recap. New bearings, belts, pulleys, .9deg motors, carriages, glass bed, now longer rods. Giving up again unless someone has an epiphany.

Thanks
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:20 am

Cory, does that pattern change if you rotate or flip the glass? Try turning it 90 degrees (make a mark on the glass edge so you can more easily track how you've rotated it) and see how that goes. I'm curious to see how (or if) the results change. I wish I could get my hands on your machine for an afternoon. :)

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:39 am

geneb wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:20 am
Cory, does that pattern change if you rotate or flip the glass? Try turning it 90 degrees (make a mark on the glass edge so you can more easily track how you've rotated it) and see how that goes. I'm curious to see how (or if) the results change. I wish I could get my hands on your machine for an afternoon. :)

g.
I've replaced the glass since I found this issue. I'm one of those lucky people that gets ABS to occasionally pull a chunk of glass out of the bed.

What kind of results are typical for these machines?

Thanks
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:28 am

Further thoughts: dc42 had stated that having the rods as close to horizontal as I did caused issues, which is why I tried longer rods. He also stated that it looked like backlash. I agree that it looks like backlash. But the issue there is that the machine feeds down quite a bit in Z each probe point. So that, in my thinking, would work the backlash out of the system. I'm still using a dial indicator with a micro switch for the probe. I'm looking into using a piezo setup so I can actually use the nozzle and not have to set my Z height manually. I don't see any way my makeshift probe could be causing the issue either. IE: I'm not dragging the point or anything so it shouldn't have any 'memory' of last direction traveled.

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:32 am

I had no idea you were using a mechanical probe! I have a vague (and I mean /really/ vague) memory of being told that micro switches can have a repeatability error of +/- 0.100mm. For some reason I thought you were using the Smart Effector, which has a strain gauge built into the PCB (that's what the SE300 PCB is based upon). I wouldn't mess with the piezo sensor and go straight to a Smart Effector or an SE300. If you go the Smart Effector route, 713maker.com sells an adapter that will allow you to mount it to the stock SeeMeCNC effector platform.

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:35 am

geneb wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:32 am
I had no idea you were using a mechanical probe! I have a vague (and I mean /really/ vague) memory of being told that micro switches can have a repeatability error of +/- 0.100mm. For some reason I thought you were using the Smart Effector, which has a strain gauge built into the PCB (that's what the SE300 PCB is based upon). I wouldn't mess with the piezo sensor and go straight to a Smart Effector or an SE300. If you go the Smart Effector route, 713maker.com sells an adapter that will allow you to mount it to the stock SeeMeCNC effector platform.

g.
This could be the issue, as it's the only common component in all the testing. The micro switch (seemecnc endstop switch) actually repeats very well. The pattern I'm getting isn't a repeatability issue, it's very consistent. I've looked at the indicator I'm using many times trying to figure out how it could be the cause of the problem too, but I can't see how.

I might got the smart effector route. Only issues there are pulling more wires though the towers(not going to happen after I added the dual filament Y adapter and wiring) is that's going to cost another couple of inches of Z height, I'm using a thermocouple, more money.

That puts me back to trying to decide if I should upgrade the frame to a V3, or a metal frame, or the DIY route if I'm going to go doing much more to this printer.

Thanks
Cory
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:54 am

I'm not sure what the wire count is for the Smart Effector, but it shouldn't cost you any Z height.
You might consider moving the electronics up top. That way you'd only have power & heated bed wires in the towers.

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:18 am

geneb wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:54 am
I'm not sure what the wire count is for the Smart Effector, but it shouldn't cost you any Z height.
You might consider moving the electronics up top. That way you'd only have power & heated bed wires in the towers.

g.
Does the whole head hang below the ball joints?

Part of the reason I keep thinking about a v3 frame. Looked at the 713 maker metal frame for both. But don't see a path from v2 to be metal without buying v3 frame and v3 metal frame. I haven't seen the v3 injected motor mounts available separately

Thanks
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:32 am

I don't know for sure how the Smart Effector does it, but the SE300 is set up such that the nozzle hangs slightly below the cooling fan shrouds. 90% of the hot end is above the plane of the effector.

As far as I know, the v3 metal kits that 713maker sells are totally complete - you just supply the electronics, wiring, and moving bits from your v2. I would contact them directly if it's not very clear on their website.

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:23 pm

Does anyone know how the smart effector can be mounted? I see maker 713's adapter plate. But there are 3 holes in the smart effector that might line up and mount on the standoffs like the original hotends did.

I'll contact 713 again after Thanksgiving break about that.

Thanks
Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:42 am

I don't know how it mounts - I've never had one in my possession.

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:52 am

Hopefully someone will chime in. All the pictures I see show the e3d hotend completely below the ball mounts. And I really don't want to swap heads.

I ran across I monoprice iiip for sale cheap locally. Tiny, but prints way better

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:52 am

Hopefully someone will chime in. All the pictures I see show the e3d hotend completely below the ball mounts. And I really don't want to swap heads.

I ran across I monoprice iiip for sale cheap locally. Tiny, but prints way better

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:39 pm

Any thought on the ULTIBOTS FSR KIT? At least I don't have to swap head, or lose much Z height.

The Maker713 metal frame would be missing parts for a V2 upgrade. Not sure that the V3 would be much better than the metal framed V2 anyway

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Cory

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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by geneb » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:23 am

The FSR kit would work as well, yes.
It's not going to be as good as the strain gauge though.

g.
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Re: Max v2 issue with peaks and valleys in bed map[NEW DATA]

Post by clytle374 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:28 am

So I have some more information. Not sure that it helps with anything, but more information. I had ran a backlash routine before that dc42 had posted. But it was running in more in the center of the bed. I've been stuck thinking backlash was only in 'axis travel' and not somewhere else. That is poorly worded.

I decided to take a different approach after someone said it looked like one axis was causing it. I had assumed all 3 were, or I guess it could just be the rear tower as you don't see the problem there as much because of the probing pattern. So I wrote a program to probe at a radius of 100mm in line with each tower 4 times after an 30mm outward move then 4 after an 30mm inward move both inline with the tower. Here are my results.

Code: Select all

12/2/2019, 1:42:41 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: -0.023 -0.017 -0.017 -0.017, mean -0.019, deviation from mean 0.003
12/2/2019, 1:43:13 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: -0.130 -0.136 -0.136 -0.136, mean -0.135, deviation from mean 0.003

12/2/2019, 1:43:46 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: 0.045 0.045 0.045 0.045, mean 0.045, deviation from mean 0.000
12/2/2019, 1:44:19 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: -0.111 -0.111 -0.111 -0.111, mean -0.111, deviation from mean 0.000

12/2/2019, 1:44:51 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: 0.040 0.040 0.040 0.040, mean 0.040, deviation from mean 0.000
12/2/2019, 1:45:24 AM: : G32 bed probe heights: -0.110 -0.117 -0.110 -0.110, mean -0.112, deviation from mean 0.003
So there it is. Now if I move up and down with an indicator at one point, I don't see even a quarter of that.

Looking over the machine again, I noticed movement in a skate. I went to snug a screw and the bearing journal post inside broke off. Found cracks in all of them. I had replaced them earlier this year and emailed seemecnc if I could just buy the shells. They sent me replacements at no charge! Great people!

So that could have been the problem, or not. I probably over tightened the screws. Going to replace them with 3/4" long instead of the 1/2" provided to keep from putting all the stress at the weakest point.

Hopefully that was the whole problem all along. I would think any other backlash would show up in my previous tests.
Thanks
Cory

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