PEI print bed surface experiments

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Tonkabot
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Tonkabot » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:08 pm

mhackney wrote:Yes, read my thread, it tells all about McMaster 0.040" and Amazon 0.030" material.

Ok, I read your thread. It doesn't say anything about 0.003 - just the .030 and .040. Techstorage may have used 0.003.
I may attempt the 0.003 stuff if I hear it worked okay for him.

Do you think this stuff will work as the tape? 3M 9482PC It says slippery plastics... (McMaster doesn't have the 3m 480mp stuff, and amazon is out of stock)

http://www.mcmaster.com/#7628a67/=wcny1n

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:17 pm

Exactly! .03" and .04" work fine and are thick enough to be robust and reliable. .003" is too thin. I doubt that you could use the tape to install it as the tape is .005" itself and would probably transmit lumps/imperfections through the thin PEI film.

Amazon has many sizes of the 468MP tape. I routinely use 3/4" and 1". They have 5yds of the 3/4" in stock http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7CYV0/ref=biss_dp_t_asn and 5yds of the 1" in stock: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7CZDM/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

I can't say that 9482PC will work but it should. It's temperature rating is a lot lower than the 468 and it is more expensive since it only comes in a 60 yard roll. Why not get the stuff from amazon that we ALL have used successfully?

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Tonkabot » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:29 pm

That tape I mentioned is actually .002 thick. I only picked that because it looked like the best thing McMaster had - since they didn't have the 468MP.

Looking at this: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/372489O/adhesives-and-tapes-design-guide.pdf
would imply that the 9482PC has a stronger bond with HSE plastics than 468, and a much stronger bond with LSE plastics, and also goes to 450 degrees F while the 468MP 'only' goes to 400 F. (Now if you can tell me what an HSE plastic is and what an LSE plastic is.... I don't know)

I don't mind doing what the herd does with the tried and true, but on paper the 9482PC tape looks like better stuff. Yes it is more expensive as a one time buy, but per yard it is cheaper and I have other uses for strong, quality tape. (and it is actually cheaper per yard than the other quality 3m tape I bought for my LED lighting project)

If you say that you personally tried the .003 and it sucked, and you had never heard of any success with it I will just buy the .040. But Searching the forums here it looks like only one guy may have used it, and I have not found any postings of anybody that says they tried and failed. (and I think I read all 30 pages of this thread). I am waiting for a response from techstorage saying he used .003 and it does or doesn't work for him.

mhackney wrote:Exactly! .03" and .04" work fine and are thick enough to be robust and reliable. .003" is too thin. I doubt that you could use the tape to install it as the tape is .005" itself and would probably transmit lumps/imperfections through the thin PEI film.

Amazon has many sizes of the 468MP tape. I routinely use 3/4" and 1". They have 5yds of the 3/4" in stock http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7CYV0/ref=biss_dp_t_asn and 5yds of the 1" in stock: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7CZDM/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

I can't say that 9482PC will work but it should. It's temperature rating is a lot lower than the 468 and it is more expensive since it only comes in a 60 yard roll. Why not get the stuff from amazon that we ALL have used successfully?

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Tonkabot » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:09 am

I put the .003 on my bed last night and did a couple PLA prints.

All I had handy was some 3m spray on adhesive, so I tried that. The print worked out fine, but the adhesive must have vaporized or outgassed or something as there were big bubbles under where the print was. I pushed them out as much as I could and tried the second print. (and forgot to check it this morning...)

Conclusion so far: that 3M spray stuff is the wrong stuff to use.

I am not yet convinced that .003 won't work. (I do not have tons of confidence that it will work, either.)

I'll order the .040 and the tape I found (3m 9482PC). First I'll try the tape and the .003 and see how that goes.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by techstorage » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:54 am

I used both .003 and now the .030" size of PEI sheets. They both work for sticking printed part down. I cut/ripped the thinner while trying to remove a well stuck ABS print with a razor blade. I bought the thicker one and use the reheat up the bed method with no razors now. 3M tape was used on both and imperfections on my install did show up on the .003" film sheet.

Heat xfer may be more accurate with the thinner sheet but I didn't very my temp at all to get prints to stick.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by DanHall » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:40 pm

That 468 tape may be the gooiest crap I've worked with in a long time. My roll was sticking along one edge so I ended up with a clump and didn't see it until I put the tape on the glass. It is NOT fun to remove. Second try I was more careful and it came out looking decent. Trimmed with a coping saw and cleaned up with sandpaper so I'll give it a whirl here shortly. Need to re-zero the hot end first with the extra bed height.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nylocke » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:49 pm

One of the tape widths is really sloppily cut. one side of the tape sticks to each subsequent lower layer, I've had 2 or 3 rolls like this. I've ordered 2 or 3 rolls.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by DanHall » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:40 pm

Seems to be working as advertised so far. I used 2", not sure if it was cut poorly or got compressed in shipment.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nylocke » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:19 pm

I always got the 1/2". Seems that it was cut in half or something. The one side that it was cut along always had the first 5-10 layers stuck together on one side. After discarding these layers it was fine, but quite a waste :/

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:12 am

Interesting Nylocke. The only roll I've had (of something like 20 rolls) that was stuck together like this was 1/2". I only had 2 rolls of that bought at the same time. I only get 3/4" or 1" now and haven't had a problem in 18 rolls.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by BenTheRighteous » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:29 am

I got the 1-1/8" stuff. It was stuck at the edges but didn't really impede my ability to stick it to the glass uniformly. I just had to be careful with it.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by JFettig » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:56 am

Mine was like Mikes, mushed on one side so I had to waste almost half a spool just to get usable tape.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by DanHall » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:56 pm

Going to pick up another sheet for my build in progress. I don't recall seeing it in this thread so has anyone used it with PC/ABS blends?

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nylocke » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:15 am

I'm not sure if anyone has, but both PC and ABS stick well to it (according to MHackney at least, I haven't tried it out yet) so I'd imagine it would work well.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:32 am

Ninjaflex and Nylon are the 2 filaments that don't work well with PEI.

NOTE: PC and PC blends stick tenaciously. You want to make DARN SURE your Z height is set correctly. If you are a "first layer smoosher" you need to back off to an accurate first layer height (the best practice anyway!) otherwise you will never free the part from your PEI. That makes it really hard to print anything else!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by teoman » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:46 am

Not good news today :(

I cracked by PEI :cry:


I was having grat success with it. No problems whatsoever. Then recently I is assembled the arms etc so i needed to recalibrate. And i believe my calibration was not aggressive i.e. i was not mushing the abs in to the PEI. And i did give the pei a good whipe with acetone before.

So the part printed fine but after cooling off, it did not release at all. Tried yanking it, no joy. Didn't want to put a blade to the pei with fear of damaging it. So having read all of this thread and others and being somewhat of a retard, i decided to try something new.

So i went to the fridge and got some cold water, my parts were a box and a lid so they could hold water. I poured a little bit of water in to the box and lid ( the printer had been off for a good 6 hours) and i left it as is. I could hear the usual occasional crackling sound which usually indicates that the pei is releasing the abs.

When i returned to the printer i noticed that the part came off easily but there was a crack.


Any recommendations? ? Can is stick it back together? Or shsould i order a new sheet.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:05 am

Wow, I think you are on your own with that one. I've never heard of this. I'd love to see a photo if you have one.

I don't think PEI can be stuck together unless you remelt it to fuse.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by teoman » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:50 pm

Here is the crack.

The box like structure is just a reflection. I cannot feel the crack by hand but i can feel it if i use my finger nail.

So far I shall print on places away from the crack.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Rando » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:53 am

Tonkabot wrote:...(Now if you can tell me what an HSE plastic is and what an LSE plastic is.... I don't know)


H and L SE plastics stand for high and low "surface energy". It's about the number of molecular (van der Waals) bond sites available on the surface of a material. High surface energy plastics have lots of end-chain molecules that the adhesive can attach to, and so things like ABS work well with glues. LSE plastics, are notoriously hard to bond, and include the traditional non-stick plastic like HDPE, PTFE, delrin, nylon, and so on. I'm not an expert, and that's why I'm not going to recite more of my feeble knowledge. Instead....

http://machinedesign.com/archive/bonding-low-surface-energy-plastics

Below is a chunk of the text with what appears to be the pertinent information. In addition, check out the table of materials and relative surface energies near the end of the article. It helps give that big picture....like why the tape sticks like crazy to the glass, but less to the PEI.

Surface energy also influences adhesion. It defines the ability of adhesives and pressure-sensitive adhesive (PSA) tapes to "wet out" plastic surfaces to allow adhesion. Surface wet out refers to how well a liquid or viscoelastic solid flows and intimately covers a surface. Maximum adhesion develops when the adhesive or viscoelastic PSA tape thoroughly wets out the surface to be bonded. The greater the wet out, the better the surface coverage and the greater the attractive forces between adhesives and plastic surfaces. Surfaces with high surface energy bond more readily because they are easier to wet with conventional adhesives and tapes than are low-energy surfaces.

Surface energy is a relative phenomenon. To gauge the effects of surface energy on adhesion, one must compare the surface energy of a liquid or viscoelastic solid to that of a solid surface. A liquid or viscoelastic solid possessing a lower surface energy than a solid surface will spontaneously wet out the solid surface.

High surface energy plastics such as ABS and polycarbonate bond well with standard conventional adhesives and tapes possessing lower surface energy (LSE). But wet out becomes a challenge when using these same adhesives and tapes to bond LSE plastics such as polypropylene, TPOs, and polyethylene. Conventional adhesives and tapes can't wet them out properly resulting in minimal contact with the plastic surface and unsatisfactory bonds.

Traditionally, these LSE plastics have been primed, flame treated, or corona treated to raise surface energy and make them more suitable for bonding with conventional tapes and adhesives. As design and production engineers shift to LSE plastics, they need better and more efficient ways of attaching LSE plastics to themselves, metals, or other materials.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:47 pm

quick question folks... can i put hairspray or more likely glue stick on top of the glossy side of PEI for use with ABS? i have some parts to print, but i wont get my new sheets until monday. Right now i have the glossy side 3m'd to the glass.
thanks

edit: i am having a HORRIBLE time with adhesion of PLA to the glossy side.. it comes up on a corner on even the tiniest 25mm print... rubbed down well with Iso A.
man im frustrated.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by JFettig » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:51 pm

Whats wrong with the old sheet? use some 1500grit sand paper, sand it by hand then clean it with isopropyl and you should be good to go.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Rando » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:05 pm

Also be sure you know where that cloth came from. At one point I was using car detailing paper wipes (WypAll L-40) and nothing would stick. Changed to a "virgin" microfiber cloth, and magically I had all the stick in the world. It almost seemed like the softness of that paper wipe was obtained by adding some type of grease/lanolin or something. Once I cleaned it with a 1:1 mixture of anhydrous isopropyl (99%, no water) and acetone (yes they can be mixed, but MARK the container!) and that fresh clean microfiber, it was like night and day. And, that change was even WITH the 1500grit sanding.

It almost seems like the mechanism behind PEI working is that, at high temps, it unlocks some of those available chemical bonds for attaching to the extrudate, but then pulls them back when it cools down below ~40-50C. So, even when I print with PETT (T-Glase) that really prefers a 60C bed, I crank it up to 80C for the first and second layers to get the adhesion going, then slowly lower it to the recommended 60C during the rest of the print. The parts I've been doing this with most recently haven't been the kind to peel, so honestly I won't claim I've seen it help in the instance you're having. But, it might help. Or it might not.

Good luck, JFettig, it's get there....and once it does, it will be sooo schweet. Since mine started working, it's like I never even have to worry about it. Indeed, if there was a problem, it's that I have to wait for the bed to cool so much before I can remove a failing print to start over :D.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nylocke » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:25 pm

I've had good results with 00 gauge Steel Wool. Gives a pretty good finish and prints stick super well (Been slowly upgrading the school's Makerbutt and this was one of the upgrades. One of the kids did a print without the bed being very level (not really his fault) and it scuffed up the glossiness my teacher liked, so we switched to matte with 00 SW and the part he printed today stuck so well it broke when I tried to pry it off (it still wasn't that well leveled, but the point is the same)). Been using it since I found a bag full at my Makerspace.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:22 pm

so im trying a new pad with the ISO... when i read the recent posts, i thought "ive been using the same paper towel for days" so its no mystery if that is the issue.
so we will see.
for ABS particularly, I could just sand down the glossy side and use my 2nd piece of glass for glossy PLA later.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:53 pm

so that didnt work... im wondering if its this filament, because the other stuff i was using originally to test worked... would one PLA adhere that much better than another? i mean its a 25mm cube, not a big part... i guess ill test that next.

EDIT : so the filament change didnt work... still warped. BUT i turned off the heated bed and voila, no warping for PLA... thats really bizarre.. I know once i print a large piece, it will warp, but for this smaller one, no warp... any idea what is going on here ? 60c bed.

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