Print PLA on paper...

[mhackney]

If you've read my build thread, I've been struggling with PLA sticking TOO well to blue tape! I recently had to buy a new roll and even though it is the same 3M brand, it seems to stick much more tenaciously to the print. I've tried every trick I know and found on the web. I end up breaking and warping parts trying to remove them. Then I came across a trick that is so simple and effective. Basically, don't print on tape, print on regular copy paper! Simply tape it down by the edges, stretched tightly. I heat my bed to 60°C for PLA and then print. The part sticks perfectly - even large parts don't "corner warp". Then, when the print is done, it comes off the bed easily with paper attached. A quick trip to the sink to soak the paper int cool water and it all comes right off! Very cool and it leaves a really nice surface finish on the part. I know it is hard to see but this is the print-down surface on a bugger of a part to remove from blue tape with out destroying:

[img]http://mhackney.zenfolio.com/img/s5/v13 ... 8788-3.jpg[/img]

The paper came right off without distorting the part.

BTW, this is Bling Bling Gold PLA from Faberdashery in the UK. Spectacular material! it has a little gold sparkle to it and is absolutely beautiful.

cheers,
Michael

[dpmacri]

Very cool idea!

I'm curious about printing these parts out of PLA. Presumably, a fishing reel will be used outside where it can get hot in the summer . Are you at all concerned about the parts softening and warping? I ask because over the summer I took a bunch of my initial prints over to my mother-in-law's to show her what I had printed. We were sitting around the swimming pool and I had the parts in a large ziploc back. They all ended up warping from the heat

[dpmacri]

BTW, it just occurred to me that this would make an awesome mechanism for doing a series of identical prints. Just put a roll of paper (not sure if paper rolls would have the same stickiness benefit) with an auto-feed mechanism that can be controlled by the RAMBo. You'd print an item, then just feed the paper through a fixed distance, then print another. Of course, you'd need some weights or something to come down to hold the paper in place. And the printed parts would end up piling up somewhere

Just a crazy idea

[bubbasnow]

BTW, it just occurred to me that this would make an awesome mechanism for doing a series of identical prints. Just put a roll of paper (not sure if paper rolls would have the same stickiness benefit) with an auto-feed mechanism that can be controlled by the RAMBo. You'd print an item, then just feed the paper through a fixed distance, then print another. Of course, you'd need some weights or something to come down to hold the paper in place. And the printed parts would end up piling up somewhere

Just a crazy idea

i like this idea!

[mhackney]

That is a very cool idea! Lots of ideas come to mind to hold the edges of the paper down. The output could just drop into a bucket! Filled with water!

There are papers that readily dissolve in water that might be interesting to try. This is a very cool crazy idea!

cheers,
Michael

[bvandiepenbos]

Great Idea!
thanks for the tip about printing on paper.
gonna have to try that!
paper may work with nylon filament also? which is tough to get stuck.


The roll feed idea is clever, should work well. reminds me of the makerbot thing-o-matic.


I print PLA on glass with hairspray, works great, although to much hairspray will make prints stick almost to good. But after glass cools they always pop off.
Trick is a LIGHT coat of hairspray then a quick tap with sharp putty knife will pop print right off even with warm bed.

[bvandiepenbos]

I don't think PLA has problems with moisture as much as you hear. I soaked a part overnight in water and it did not dissolve, only got a bit flexible then got stiff again after a few days of drying out.
hmmm, wonder if that could be used to shape/bend parts after printing?

[mhackney]

Brian, I've tried printing with hairspray on glass for PLA. That's how I do it exclusively for ABS, but I just can't get PLA to stick. I've tried 60° and 80° beds. I know my Z height is spot on and I get a good "smoosh" but the first layer always shears off at corners, etc. even printing at 5mm/s. I'm using Herbal Essence, what are you using? That would be a lot more convenient, however, the surface finish I'm getting on paper is superb, not glossy like the ABS on glass, more of a nice sheen.

I've printed 12 objects on paper today and everyone of them was perfect. I did learn a couple of tips:

1. Make sure to preheat your bed before taping down the paper, it will buckle if you put it on cold. I'm printing with a 60°C bed.
2. Make sure to keep the bed hot the entire time, otherwise the paper will buckle when it cools.
   Minimize the margin of paper you have around the part. Ideally, keep it to about 1/4" or so. This decreases likelihood of lift on retract.
3. Once complete, lift the tape to remove the paper and part. I've found I can even reuse the blue tape I use to hold down the paper.
4. Run the part/paper under cold tap water for maybe a minute then peel off the paper. It's that easy.

[Batteau62]

Problematic to set up heated, but how about a vacuum surface to hold the paper? Like you would use to silkscreen.

[mhackney]

A vacuum system would work well and wouldn't have to be that complex. It could be made out of aluminum for heat dissipation too. It does not require much force to hold the paper in place. I would estimate 1mm holes on 15mm centers should do it. But the noise from the vacuum or venturi would be a minor issue. But boy would that be convenient!

[jmpreuss]

I'm using Herbal Essence, what are you using?

You cannot use just any hairspray. My understanding from various forums, and from personal experience, is that only 2 hairsprays work, old school unscented aquanet and garnier fructis extreme hold level 5. I tried using gf level 4 and it didn't work, only level 5. Other hairsprays just don't have a strong enough hold and won't work.

[Batteau62]

I've been using this since day one. Works very well and cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Extreme-Hol ... B002I7I3AM

[Eaglezsoar]

Would regular printer paper work (20lb).
Has anyone tried the paper on a cold bed?

[mhackney]

I'm using Herbal Essence, what are you using?

You cannot use just any hairspray. My understanding from various forums, and from personal experience, is that only 2 hairsprays work, old school unscented aquanet and garnier fructis extreme hold level 5. I tried using gf level 4 and it didn't work, only level 5. Other hairsprays just don't have a strong enough hold and won't work.

I've been using Herbal Essence since he start and back then, folks were using this successfully for ABS (which is what I use it for). I used to print PLA on blue tape until I ran into this problem this week with out sticking too tenaciously to the new roll of blue tape I got (same 3M brand). However, it may be that HE hairspray isn't good for PLA so I am going to pick up some of the aqua net and try it.

cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Would regular printer paper work (20lb).
Has anyone tried the paper on a cold bed?

Eagle, I've now printed on pretty much every paper I have here! And I have a lot - parchment, kraft, 20#, 50#, 12#, poster board, rice paper, and a few others.

Rice paper is too thin, the others work great. You have to have a hot bed, otherwise the PLA curls since it is stuck to the paper which is not held down tightly. With a hot bed, the PLA doesn't curl and the prints come out dead flat.

This is interesting, I was experimenting with starting with a hot bed and then turning it off after the first layer. On the round fishing reel part I print, that caused the disk to warp evenly around the circle to give a very pleasing dome shape to the back of the part - which is the visible part. As the part built layer to layer, the part leveled out and all of the thin pillars came out perfectly true and straight. I've done this successfully on 2 parts now so it seems reproducible.

I've also discovered that more times than not, I can peel the part off the paper without having to untape it, and the paper is not ruined. I've successfully printed 4 parts in a row on the same piece of paper. It just peels right off but is nicely bonded end to end. I'm very intrigued by printing on paper!

Cheers,
Michael

[jmpreuss]

I've been using this since day one. Works very well and cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Extreme-Hol ... B002I7I3AM

"Extreme Hold", I think those are the key words to look for. Glad to see another brand working.

I'm going to have to try this paper thing.

[mhackney]

I got Garnier Fructis Style - Extreme Control - "5" in a green metallic can. This is what I've seen on other forums for ABS. I've never had a problem with ABS with Herbal Essence but not PLA. I picked some up at CVS today but haven't tried it. It would be nice if it worked for most things I print in PLA.

I am on my 12th print on the same piece of paper now! It is a little ratty so I'll replace after this run but this is fantastic and the surface finish is superb on all parts.

[img]https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 3750_n.jpg[/img]

[Eaglezsoar]

I got Garnier Fructis Style - Extreme Control - "5" in a green metallic can. This is what I've seen on other forums for ABS. I've never had a problem with ABS with Herbal Essence but not PLA. I picked some up at CVS today but haven't tried it. It would be nice if it worked for most things I print in PLA.

I am on my 12th print on the same piece of paper now! It is a little ratty so I'll replace after this run but this is fantastic and the surface finish is superb on all parts.

[img]https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 3750_n.jpg[/img]

What filament is that orange transparent that you are showing?

[mhackney]

SeeMeCNC orange PLA.

[mhackney]

Well, I sprayed my glass with Garnier and heated it to 60°C. The PLA is definitely sticking - the orange part above. Those little slots with the sharp angles are hell if the PLA doesn't stick and is doing great. Now we'll see if it comes off!

I'm hopeful, that would allow me to load up my platform and print 6 of these (2 parts each) at a time. That would streamline my production.

cheers,
Michael

[Eaglezsoar]

Well, I sprayed my glass with Garnier and heated it to 60°C. The PLA is definitely sticking - the orange part above. Those little slots with the sharp angles are hell if the PLA doesn't stick and is doing great. Now we'll see if it comes off!

I'm hopeful, that would allow me to load up my platform and print 6 of these (2 parts each) at a time. That would streamline my production.

cheers,
Michael

Now I am confused. Why not the paper for these?
And that has to be the translucent orange PLA and I absolutely love it!

[bubbasnow]

wait till the bed temp drops to about 20c (my room temp) then it usually is already free and just sitting there.

[mhackney]

Success! The parts came off quite nicely, good surface finish - although glossy, not like the semi matte from the paper. But, they do look nice. I am printing 3 up now to test a larger batch and then I'll go for it.

Thanks for the recommendations. "All hairspray is not the same."

[mhackney]

Eagle, I want to print the entire bed full at a time. There is no way to hold a sheet of paper down (without gluing it) to the bed so that it doesn't warp or buckle. Paper is fine for printing 1 set (2 parts) at a time and I do prefer the surface finish. But I have a lot of items that I want to print multiples of and fill the bed. That's really the only reason. It's good to have options.

Since I am printing multiple sessions back to back I don't want to wait for the bed or hot end to cycle temperatures. I was able to easily pop these parts off the 60°C bed so I could start printing the best batch immediately. The set of 3 (6 parts) is coming along splendidly!

cheers,
Michael

[neurascenic]

3m sells a post-it removable spray mount. Maybe you could spray your paper... To stick to the bed.