1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

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Elysio
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1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by Elysio » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:20 am

Hi

1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2?

When I do the math I could see that the area of a 1mm nozzle is 4 times the area of a 0.5mm nozzle.
Which means 4 times more filament while printing.
Is the stepper motor able to push that hard over hours without overheating ?

The reason for my question is a client order which would cost me 260h print time with a 0.5mm nozzle and a layerheight of 0.3mm

Has anyone experience with this ?

BEst regards, Chris.

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jmpreuss
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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by jmpreuss » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:47 am

I don't think the stepper motor is going to be the issue, it being able to heat the filament fast enough. If in the end the print has to be 0.3mm a bigger nozzle isn't going to save you much time.
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Renha
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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by Renha » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:50 am

> Which means 4 times more filament while printing.
actually, no. You most likely wouldn't push filament with same speed.

>When I do the math I could see that the area of a 1mm nozzle is 4 times the area of a 0.5mm nozzle.
area - yes, but when printer prints a line, only diameter difference matters, which is only x2.
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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by Elysio » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:36 am

Renha wrote:> Which means 4 times more filament while printing.
actually, no. You most likely wouldn't push filament with same speed.

>When I do the math I could see that the area of a 1mm nozzle is 4 times the area of a 0.5mm nozzle.
area - yes, but when printer prints a line, only diameter difference matters, which is only x2.


Hi Renha.

Thank you, yes sounds logical to me, I will give it a try.

jmpreuss wrote:If in the end the print has to be 0.3mm a bigger nozzle isn't going to save you much time.


this is something that I do not understand.
1mm is twice the diameter of a 0.5mm nozzle.
That means as Renha mentioned the half of the printing time of a 0.5mm nozzle.

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Xenocrates
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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by Xenocrates » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:33 am

I'm going to weigh in here.

The limiting speed factors:
Speed of motion. This is determined by the printer hardware. Pulleys, motors, controller (A better controller can support a higher step rate), and power supply (At a certain level, you need a higher voltage differential to get the rise time low enough given the inductive nature of steppers)

Melt volume. This is determined by the nozzle and heater geometry. The more surface area to dump heat into, the higher the melt volume per unit time. This is the hard limit on the amount of plastic you can push. You want 1.75 mm for the filament diameter, due to the better surface area to volume ratio. You also want maximal length (See the E3D Volcano).

Nozzle size. This is what you were asking about. It's useful for two things. It reduces the needed number of layers, and deposits a thicker trace, meaning less tracks per layer are required for a given infill, and you can potentially use less perimeters. However, this works when the limiting factor is the motion speed (Mostly not the case on a V2).

Cooling and heat rejection. If you cannot remove sufficient heat from the part as it's being printed, it will droop, slump, and become a mess. Thus you need to be able to remove enough heat from the object for it to maintain integrity. You also need to not overly cool the top layers, as that hurts layer adhesion. Another killer is if you overly cool the bulk object, you can see cracking and warping, as the strain builds up rapidly and locally.


My suggestion is that if you want the fastest part practical, is to A) contact the customer, and check what the minimum feature size they want is, as well as the Infill, minimum wall thickness (in MM). If it takes 260 hours, ask if it can be split up as multiple prints and joined after the fact (This could also help with their shipping bill). Any parts which are entirely internal can be printed at a higher layer height with a larger nozzle, and a higher speed (As precision is less important). This also let's you work with the right size of nozzle and layer heights for a given feature. Note that a larger aperture on the same nozzle design is actually a negative to your melt volume, though slight. If you need the highest flow rate, use a Volcano style heater and nozzle, and crank the temp up a bit.
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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by gchristopher » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:51 am

I've run a lot of filament through a 0.8 mm nozzle with an E3D volcano and EZStruder on a Rostock V2. I didn't get any impression that with that setup, I was close to any limits.

The effective speedup is much more than 4x faster. More in the 8x range. For a rough preview, try slicing with hypothetical larger nozzle sizes/widths/layer heights. Print time estimates aren't perfect, but you'll get a good idea of the speedup.

I got the impression that I could run a 1.0mm or 1.2mm nozzle pretty easily.

A friend is going a bit crazier than this with a homemade 1.5mm dual-heater-cartridge nozzle block.

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Re: 1mm nozzle? Has anyone tried this with a MAX2

Post by Elysio » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:20 am

Hi.

Thank you for your replies and comments.

The good thing is, not my clients have to say how they want it, it is only me who can decide this. But even then, the parts that have to be printed need alot of material.
In this case it was with a 0.5mm nozzle 260h.
Now with a 1mm nozzle I can print this in 160h. Not half of the time, but 40% is a good result.

But it has some specific problems.
- As mentioned or better said, asked, The motor becomes significantely warmer nearly to hot. I constructed a ventilation tunnel for a 60mm fan. Now the motor is cool even under extrem working conditions.
- Due to the fact that 40% more material will be printed the object can not cool down so fast. This is in regions where you have a lot overhang a problem, it warps.
How I can manage this, is not clear right now, the standard MAX2 cooling solution is not enough for this.
- 0,35 mm layer hight is a bit problematic, to much material will be squeezed out of the noozle, which makes a rough surface.

I will keep you informed, Thank you again for your comments.

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