Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

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RP Iron Man
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:15 pm

Renha wrote:RP Iron Man, i dont think i fully understand Groove mount principle, some wikis doesnt help me too. So, please, could you (or anybody else) explain me that thing: when ill get Prometheus, ill need only the thing like that http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:237847 for mounting? What does mean the next sentence on indiegogo page:
and if you select a Groove Mount Plate as an add-on it will ship with your Prometheus (1.75mm or 3mm) perk.

I havent seen any add-ons anywhere :( or i dont need it at all?

Thank you for your work again, the pictures are great


Sorry about that, I actually removed the laser cut groove mount plate that I was going to offer as an add on. Not many people needed it so I just removed it. If you want I can put it up there, but you could just as easily print your own for free! So you don't need to buy the laser cut plate from me.

As for the mounting, it really depends on your printer. THe basic groove mount principal is that a plastic plate can be printed to fit the groove in the top of the hot end heat sink (see pictures on the campaign page) and secure the hot end during operation. Since you are using a Rostock Max V2 you need to see how you can replace your current hot end with my hot end. That link you included in your post is actually designed to fit the E3D which has different groove mount dimensions than Prometheus. If that design could be modified to fit a 4.6mm groove then it should work perfectly. Unfortunately I don't have a Rostock V2 (yet!) so I can't model this myself.

BTW, I think McSlappy is going to model a mounting fixture for Prometheus soon so stay tuned! Don't worry, you are not the only person who needs to mount Prometheus to their Rostock Max V2, so this problem will likely be solved very soon before I even start shipping :)

Eric
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by Eaglezsoar » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:40 pm

So, if I understand this correctly, a standard jhead mount would fit your Prometheus. If this is the case there are dozens of such mounts
on Thingiverse and you can buy them from Brian at trick laser. I think that SeemeCNC also have a version of the mount.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:30 pm

RP Iron Man wrote:Ok, here they are:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87676108@ ... 930743154/

Enjoy :)

Eric


Cheers, I'll get on it.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:43 am

Eaglezsoar wrote:So, if I understand this correctly, a standard jhead mount would fit your Prometheus. If this is the case there are dozens of such mounts
on Thingiverse and you can buy them from Brian at trick laser. I think that SeemeCNC also have a version of the mount.


Prometheus has standard J-Head groove mounting dimensions so you are right that there would be many compatible mounts on thingiverse. McSlappy is also modeling a mount for the Rostock Max.

Eric
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by bvandiepenbos » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:54 am

RP Iron Man,
I am curious how you determined making the bore before the orifice a 60 degree angle? This is considerable different than most others, as I understand.
Did you test different angles? or did that just seem right on paper and/or makes the polishing easier?
~*Brian V.

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:28 pm

bvandiepenbos wrote:RP Iron Man,
I am curious how you determined making the bore before the orifice a 60 degree angle? This is considerable different than most others, as I understand.
Did you test different angles? or did that just seem right on paper and/or makes the polishing easier?


The entire purpose of that internal geometry is to increase the heat conduction to the tip of the nozzle. It increases the mass at the nozzle tip which allows for better thermal conduction to the tip and therefore higher feed rates. Since it is an all SS nozzle, this helps mitigate the effects of the decreased thermal conduction through the SS.

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by bvandiepenbos » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:50 pm

RP Iron Man wrote:
bvandiepenbos wrote:RP Iron Man,
I am curious how you determined making the bore before the orifice a 60 degree angle? This is considerable different than most others, as I understand.
Did you test different angles? or did that just seem right on paper and/or makes the polishing easier?


The entire purpose of that internal geometry is to increase the heat conduction to the tip of the nozzle. It increases the mass at the nozzle tip which allows for better thermal conduction to the tip and therefore higher feed rates. Since it is an all SS nozzle, this helps mitigate the effects of the decreased thermal conduction through the SS.

Eric


Ahhh, that sounds logical.
I would also think it changes retraction and back pressure, probably for the good.... possibly less back pressure and less oozing?
The smoother transition should be a good thing all around.
Less retraction needed would help print PLA more reliable.
Man!, I am so anxious to get your hot end.

Have you printed both ABS and PLA reliably with your hot end?
~*Brian V.

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:14 pm

I think this internal geometry may reduce backpressure since it would generate a more laminar (streamlined) flow of molten plastic out the orifice. However, theoretically this may actually negatively affect "ooze" since the molten plastic would experience less backpressure resisting the "forwardpressure" induced by the force of gravity. Then again, the effect of decreased backpressure due to this internal geometry would likely only be a significant factor at high feed rates, so it is unlikely that "ooze" would increase by any measurable amount. Therefore, I think this geometry results in lower backpressure at higher feed rates, while not increasing the amount of ooze. All good :)

I designed the nozzle orifice length to be 1mm to reduce the amount of "ooze". This orifice length provides a good balance by decreasing "ooze" while not significantly increasing backpressure. I can get away with very low retraction and the backpressure is not a problem at all. Also, keep in mind that the length of the "melt-zone" affects the volume of molten filament in the hot end, and therefore affects the amount of "ooze". A shorter "melt-zone" will significantly decrease the amount of "ooze".

I have tested for a few hundred hours of printing with PLA, ABS, Nylon 618, and PC all with great results! I have never had ANY issues whatsoever :) No leaks, clogs, jams, etc... This printing success is all due to the performance that results from all of the design decisions that make up this hot end. When you have the right design and manufacturing, the results speak for themselves.

I can't wait to get this hot end out there! I think that once people start realizing how well this hot end functions I will have many more customers :)

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:17 am

Ok as promised here's the Prometheus mount for Rostock Max. Would some of you mind downloading and looking it over (or printing it if you feel brave) and let me know if you think it's sufficient. I'd like to change any issues before the head is released.

Especially you Eric, could you print it and confirm it fits the head? Maybe take some shots so I can see it?.... Or just send me my early bird head now and I'll take some shots? :) he he he.

Should I include some more standoff versions? Perhaps 10, 15, 20mm for different hot end configs? I only included a 4mm since that's the max I can get using the stock screws.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:298553
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:38 pm

Wow, great work!

Unfortunately, I don't have an operating printer right now since I sent out a few of my Prometheus prototypes for reviews :( I will try to set up one of my remaining prototypes with my printer and print this out. It may be a few days though because I am really busy trying to get my website up. I looked at it and it looks great! I think it will fit perfectly. The Early Bird hot ends are still in production so I can't send you one right now, but it won't be too long to wait!

As for the standoffs, I don't know about the specific clearance that each standoff length translates to, but I can give you the length of the hot end for reference. Prometheus can be customized from about 52mm to 64mm (max) in length based on the "melt-zone" length that you require (assuming standard 2-3mm "transition-zone"). You can set the length of the standoffs based on these lengths. Maybe you could make two versions. 1 for a 52mm to 58mm length and another for 58mm to 64mm length.

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by Eaglezsoar » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:57 pm

McSlappy wrote:Ok as promised here's the Prometheus mount for Rostock Max. Would some of you mind downloading and looking it over (or printing it if you feel brave) and let me know if you think it's sufficient. I'd like to change any issues before the head is released.

Especially you Eric, could you print it and confirm it fits the head? Maybe take some shots so I can see it?.... Or just send me my early bird head now and I'll take some shots? :) he he he.

Should I include some more standoff versions? Perhaps 10, 15, 20mm for different hot end configs? I only included a 4mm since that's the max I can get using the stock screws.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:298553

Would there be a way to attach a layer fan in case you wanted to print some PLA?
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:23 pm

RP Iron Man wrote:Wow, great work!

Unfortunately, I don't have an operating printer right now since I sent out a few of my Prometheus prototypes for reviews :( I will try to set up one of my remaining prototypes with my printer and print this out. It may be a few days though because I am really busy trying to get my website up. I looked at it and it looks great! I think it will fit perfectly. The Early Bird hot ends are still in production so I can't send you one right now, but it won't be too long to wait!

As for the standoffs, I don't know about the specific clearance that each standoff length translates to, but I can give you the length of the hot end for reference. Prometheus can be customized from about 52mm to 64mm (max) in length based on the "melt-zone" length that you require (assuming standard 2-3mm "transition-zone"). You can set the length of the standoffs based on these lengths. Maybe you could make two versions. 1 for a 52mm to 58mm length and another for 58mm to 64mm length.

Eric


Ha ha, I was joking about getting one - I know you've got them all in the reviewers hot hands where they should be :)

Yes I could make one for each size range no problems. So is that the overall length? from entrance opening to nozzle tip?
Also what's the length of the nozzle, I couldn't find that in any documentation you have.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Eaglezsoar wrote:Would there be a way to attach a layer fan in case you wanted to print some PLA?


I didn't really think of that - though I have been contemplating a complete layer fan and mount combo for the e3d...

How do you have your layer fan with your current hot-end? Is it part of the mount?
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by Eaglezsoar » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:07 pm

McSlappy wrote:
Eaglezsoar wrote:Would there be a way to attach a layer fan in case you wanted to print some PLA?


I didn't really think of that - though I have been contemplating a complete layer fan and mount combo for the e3d...

How do you have your layer fan with your current hot-end? Is it part of the mount?

I have the Orion that had the stock hotend with the small layer fan. Then I removed the stock hotend and
put in the E3D and the nozzle only protruded maybe 3/8" and the layer fan would no longer work because the nozzle wasn't down far
enough. In order to provide for the E3D fan, very little of the nozzle protrudes down past the bottom of the effector. I have found
no layer fan that will work in this circumstance. Perhaps someone has come up with something and they would be willing to share.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:48 pm

McSlappy wrote:Ha ha, I was joking about getting one - I know you've got them all in the reviewers hot hands where they should be :)

Yes I could make one for each size range no problems. So is that the overall length? from entrance opening to nozzle tip?
Also what's the length of the nozzle, I couldn't find that in any documentation you have.


Yup, the lengths I mentioned are the overall length from the entrance opening to the nozzle tip, though keep in mind that they are rough estimates so they may vary by a couple of mm.

1-piece nozzle length is 34mm.

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:01 am

Eaglezsoar wrote:
McSlappy wrote:
Eaglezsoar wrote:Would there be a way to attach a layer fan in case you wanted to print some PLA?


I didn't really think of that - though I have been contemplating a complete layer fan and mount combo for the e3d...

How do you have your layer fan with your current hot-end? Is it part of the mount?

I have the Orion that had the stock hotend with the small layer fan. Then I removed the stock hotend and
put in the E3D and the nozzle only protruded maybe 3/8" and the layer fan would no longer work because the nozzle wasn't down far
enough. In order to provide for the E3D fan, very little of the nozzle protrudes down past the bottom of the effector. I have found
no layer fan that will work in this circumstance. Perhaps someone has come up with something and they would be willing to share.


Is the effector plate the same size on the orion?
My thought was to make an all-in-one mount and layer fan that utilized the effector plate opening for the layer fan rather than having it reach around the outside. There are downsides to this method, such as crowding, but for some reason I'd like the thing as compact as possible.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:03 am

RP Iron Man wrote:Yup, the lengths I mentioned are the overall length from the entrance opening to the nozzle tip, though keep in mind that they are rough estimates so they may vary by a couple of mm.

1-piece nozzle length is 34mm.

Eric


Great, thanks!

Oh I should have clarified the dimensions on the nuts that you're using too - you have those?
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:21 am

Ok I've updated and added another standoff size and explained it all a little better.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:298553/
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:00 pm

McSlappy wrote:
RP Iron Man wrote:Yup, the lengths I mentioned are the overall length from the entrance opening to the nozzle tip, though keep in mind that they are rough estimates so they may vary by a couple of mm.

1-piece nozzle length is 34mm.

Eric


Great, thanks!

Oh I should have clarified the dimensions on the nuts that you're using too - you have those?


Yeah, the reason why I said that the estimates were rough is because the 1.75mm version uses M4 nuts (3.2mm height) and the 3mm version uses M5 nuts (4mm height) so the min and max height is a little different for each version.

Hope this clarifies things!

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:25 pm

RP Iron Man wrote:Yeah, the reason why I said that the estimates were rough is because the 1.75mm version uses M4 nuts (3.2mm height) and the 3mm version uses M5 nuts (4mm height) so the min and max height is a little different for each version.

Hope this clarifies things!

Eric


Oops, I just measured them and they are actually:

M4: 3.1mm

M5: 3.8mm

Those are the accurate heights :)

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:30 am

Great, I'll add those the model - they're not critical, but it helps people visualize it in 3d.

Eric, do you mind me uploading the Prometheus model that I built? Perhaps I should have you check it over to make sure it's accurate enough once I add the nuts. I was just going to upload the 3mm filament version, I don't think it's necessary to change it for 1.75mm.
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:46 pm

That's totally fine. Just the 3mm version should be ok. Having a model helps people visualize how everything will fit together. I realize that I should probably put up STLs of all the parts rather than just the CAD drawings.

Thanks a lot for designing this! I think it will really help people integrate my hot end into their delta printers :)

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by McSlappy » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:11 pm

Ok great, I'll add the nuts and post it up.
Yes having a model up there is such a useful tool for people. If you have the .stl file of the head maybe it's better for you to post them, that way you get the credit and people will assume it's high quality. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to post the model I've got, but it's a pretty simple one.

No probs, I do hope it helps people
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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:26 pm

Ok, I'll try to get the STLs on Thingiverse tomorrow.

Thanks!

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Re: Prometheus Hot End: Customizable All Metal Hot End!

Post by RP Iron Man » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:33 pm

Great News!

Thanks to all of the supporters! Prometheus is now fully funded!

I really appreciate all of the support from everyone in the 3D printing community. This hot end has great potential and thanks to you guys it will soon become a reality!

Now that the funding goal is behind us I am thinking about possible stretch goals to keep things rolling. Many people were asking about different nozzle sizes so I think that would make an appropriate stretch goal. I will need more funds to do a production run of a different nozzle size, so having more funds available would allow me to get started on this sooner.

I was debating between a smaller 0.25mm nozzle or a larger 0.6mm nozzle. A 0.25mm nozzle would be ideal for very detailed printing, while a 0.6mm nozzle would be great for faster printing and would also allow Prometheus to print Taulman T-Glase.

Let me know which optional nozzle size you guys would prefer in the comments!

Thanks again for all of the support!


Happy Printing :)

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