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Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:22 pm
by CJGerard
Basically i'm wandering if it possible to put larger or different Stepper motors on a RS max. The mechanicals are easy for me but the electronics have me stumped. How would it affect the rambo? What all would i need? Drivers, larger power supply, ect.

Anyway, any suggestions or advice would help.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:34 am
by cope413
Sure it can be done, and it's straightforward depending the motors, but why? If anything, the Nema17s are overpowered for our needs.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:47 am
by CJGerard
I finally got my Max finished last weekend and i had a 4 day weekend this weekend. All i wanted to do was print all weekend long. I got through the calibration cubes and printed some snow flakes, then Friday morning my X axis servo motor locked up. It took me all day to figure out what happened and by the time i figured it out it was to late to next day anything. So basically im pissed at the nema 17s.

I was also thinking about keeping the 17s but placing one on the top and one on the bottom.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:14 am
by Eaglezsoar
CJGerard wrote:I finally got my Max finished last weekend and i had a 4 day weekend this weekend. All i wanted to do was print all weekend long. I got through the calibration cubes and printed some snow flakes, then Friday morning my X axis servo motor locked up. It took me all day to figure out what happened and by the time i figured it out it was to late to next day anything. So basically im pissed at the nema 17s.

I was also thinking about keeping the 17s but placing one on the top and one on the bottom.

The Nema 17s are fine, there are 10s of thousands out there working hard everyday. You got a lemon so
throw it away and replace it. Your reaction to one lemon motor is way overkill. If you had a bad sparkplug
in the car you wouldn't replace the engine. Seriously, the motors are quite dependable you just had the one
out of thousands that was bad. Nema 17s are large enough to handle the needs of virtually any 3D printer and
they are found on the vast majority of printers.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:44 pm
by CJGerard
Eaglezsoar wrote:The Nema 17s are fine, there are 10s of thousands out there working hard everyday. You got a lemon so
throw it away and replace it. Your reaction to one lemon motor is way overkill. If you had a bad sparkplug
in the car you wouldn't replace the engine. Seriously, the motors are quite dependable you just had the one
out of thousands that was bad. Nema 17s are large enough to handle the needs of virtually any 3D printer and
they are found on the vast majority of printers.


Yea i guess they are, You know those resistors that were shorted out when i first started this build. Those were just lemons also, no big deal. Yep and the build plate that cracked in half as soon as it warmed up. Just a lemon no big deal there either. Now a motor goes out with less than 2 hours of print time on the machine.

Its no big deal the may Daughter that helped me build it and was only here for the Summer NEVER got to see it print. Because of some silly resistors that are in 10's of thousands of printers and i just happened to get some lemons. Guess that build plate was a lemon also.

Pardon me for getting tired of things freaking breaking before they ever get used. Im sorry that i want a fully functional MAX when my daughter comes home for Christmas. Lets see how many others are out there getting ready to sell their RSMax's because They don't want to fix something that shouldn't be broken. BTW I respect SeeMeCNC and what they have tried to do so far and have yet to ask for a free replacement for anything on this machine

I also have alot of respect for you Eaglezsoar, you have helped me out alot and i have seen you help out alot of others. But i was taught growing up that when things break you fix them so they never break again.

Im not trying to sell anything here, im not spamming people. I simply want to know how to put larger motors or dual motors on my Machine and what all i need to do to the circuitry and or programming. If someone wants to help me understand this technology better so i can make the MODs and Upgrades that i want to make then so be it. If they don't, then this thread can die on this forum and i'll start asking questions in others.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:24 pm
by Eaglezsoar
CJGerard wrote:
Eaglezsoar wrote:The Nema 17s are fine, there are 10s of thousands out there working hard everyday. You got a lemon so
throw it away and replace it. Your reaction to one lemon motor is way overkill. If you had a bad sparkplug
in the car you wouldn't replace the engine. Seriously, the motors are quite dependable you just had the one
out of thousands that was bad. Nema 17s are large enough to handle the needs of virtually any 3D printer and
they are found on the vast majority of printers.


Yea i guess they are, You know those resistors that were shorted out when i first started this build. Those were just lemons also, no big deal. Yep and the build plate that cracked in half as soon as it warmed up. Just a lemon no big deal there either. Now a motor goes out with less than 2 hours of print time on the machine.

Its no big deal the may Daughter that helped me build it and was only here for the Summer NEVER got to see it print. Because of some silly resistors that are in 10's of thousands of printers and i just happened to get some lemons. Guess that build plate was a lemon also.

Pardon me for getting tired of things freaking breaking before they ever get used. Im sorry that i want a fully functional MAX when my daughter comes home for Christmas. Lets see how many others are out there getting ready to sell their RSMax's because They don't want to fix something that shouldn't be broken. BTW I respect SeeMeCNC and what they have tried to do so far and have yet to ask for a free replacement for anything on this machine

I also have alot of respect for you Eaglezsoar, you have helped me out alot and i have seen you help out alot of others. But i was taught growing up that when things break you fix them so they never break again.

Im not trying to sell anything here, im not spamming people. I simply want to know how to put larger motors or dual motors on my Machine and what all i need to do to the circuitry and or programming. If someone wants to help me understand this technology better so i can make the MODs and Upgrades that i want to make then so be it. If they don't, then this thread can die on this forum and i'll start asking questions in others.


I write these words in fear of getting my head bitten off but I feel they must be written.
I feel really bad about your daughter not being able to see the machine print. I tell you truthfully
that if all of those things had happened to me under the same circumstances in which they happened to you,
that printer would be the hell out of my house faster than it came in. That being said, I respect you for not
throwing it out of the front window.
Let's get into the logistics of larger or dual motors. The next motor size up is the Nema 23 and is most commonly found on CNC type of equipment.
The Nema 23's physical size is about double of the Nema 17. The Nema 23 current requirements are approximately double to quadruple of the Nema 17.
The Rostock Max's physical size would prohibit the mounting of Nema 23 motors simply because it is too small a platform to hold that size of motor.
None of the current electronic boards in use with 3D printers would work with the Nema 23 motors because they don't have sufficient current output to drive them.
You would have to step up to CNC controllers which could be used to design 3D printers, many of the commercially available 3D printers use such controllers and use the Nema 23 motors but their physical size
would be huge in comparison to the hobby class machines that we work with.

Is what you want doable? Yes, but not on the Max simply because of size limitations. The thin compressed sawdust "wood" they make the Max from couldn't possibly support Nema 23 motors but it wasn't designed to.
Your goal of fixing it so it never breaks again is admirable and it is a philosophy that I agree with but I am also realistic enough that you do your best to make it so and accept the fact that is a virtually impossible goal.
No machine that man has created has ever "not broken" but there should be more people working toward changing that.
In closing, I can't tell you how bad I feel about your daughter not seeing Dad's new machine not working.
I feel bad that you had to experience so many failures of so many different parts all around the same time.
The really sad thing is that there is nothing I can do to change any of it.
Let's be honest here. The Rostock Max like so many 3D printers available is built from materials that help the manufacturers generate a profit. If it wasn't this way they would be so costly only the near rich could afford them.
They are made from plastic and compressed sawdust that we laughingly call wood, and the components aren't selected based on quality but based on profitability. Hell, we are lucky that any of them work, but work they do and
most of them work quite well for the level for which they were designed which is the hobbyist level.
I cannot change what happened to you and your children but please call on me with a PM anytime you feel I could help.
I know that I did not advise you on how to make your motors larger or double and that is on purpose, I do not feel that it can
be done on the Max platform. May you and your family have better luck with it in the future then you have had in the past.
And look, I made it through without losing my head (so far).

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:49 pm
by jmpreuss
I have been following the MB forum for over a year, read probably over a thousand problem posts, and the motors are the most bullet proof thing on 3Ds printers.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:58 pm
by Eaglezsoar
jmpreuss wrote:I have been following the MB forum for over a year, read probably over a thousand problem posts, and the motors are the most bullet proof thing on 3Ds printers.

That is true, but there is always one in the bunch and Mr. Girard happened to get it.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:18 am
by CJGerard
@Eaglezoar
Thank You, and i apologize for taking my frustration out and i have no intentions of biting your head off. I knew when i bought the machine at its price that the potential for problems were going to be there. What i didn't expect was to have so many failures in the hardware of the machine. The SeeMeCNC crew along with the forums seem dedicated in finding these and ironing them out as fast as they can. As i have said in other threads, their constant updates to the new machines being shipped proves beyond a doubt how much they care about the end user. But, they do have to make some money which is why i pay full price for the replacement parts for my machine. (if i don't make them myself)

I also work with so called "industrial" machines all day and although they are not made of wood, you wouldn't believe how similar the newer cnc's are to the Max in construction. An all metal max would most likely hold up to industrial use at the same level of these new cnc's. (except it would be a hell of alot cheaper). For example we have a 1 year old hurco that cant hold +/-.002 tolerance sitting right next to 40 year old jig grinders still holding +/-.0001. Hell even our prototrak's are holding a closer tolerances than the "new" cnc hurco. Don't even get me started on Haas machines, I could go all day on how much better in construction the old metal working machines are to the new ones being offered.

As for the Nema 23's, I suspected that might be the case for the electronics. As for mounting them well, making bigger holes in the machine might help me ease some frustration.

The dual motors still interest me, and i believe the frame would hold up if done right. The question is how would i tie two smaller 17's together electronically? My first instinct would be to place one on top and one on bottom and and wire them together by matching the wires up then connecting them directly to the RAMBo? My only concern would be creating a resonance in the timing belt that would affect the print. I can make new brackets for the top motors or even a new top, so i'm not worried about mounting them.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:44 am
by Eric
The existing electronics would likely work for Nema 23, simply because you don't have much need for higher power in this application. They're bigger, need larger mounting brackets, and typically have a larger shaft diameter, but you sound better equipped than most to deal with those issues.

As for using multiple motors, in this case it really is as simple as hooking them up in parallel. Your rambo already has two connectors for the Z motor, because many non-delta printers used two motors for the Z axis screws. You could make Y-cables for the X and Y connectors if you wanted to go that way.

Still, you were actually printing before it failed, and you seem to have isolated the problem to that motor...so I'd just replace the motor first and see how it works. THEN think about improving on the design.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:41 am
by Nylocke
I can tell you for a fact that the stock RAMBo can run NEMA23s, there is an old RapMan I am upgrading with NEMA23s driving XY and Z and it works great.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:53 am
by Eaglezsoar
I have to agree with Eric on this one. I also must admit that I am not an expert in paralleling motors on the same axis with one driver per axis.
Can we see if the new motor corrects your problem and if not try to find someone who is more of an expert at attaching more than one motor
per axis? I think someone from CNCZone could help us with that. Nothing is free and I can't help but believe that something is lost when using
more than one motor per axis but I must reiterate I am not an expert. After all you have been through with this printer it would be great to
finally see it printing the way it was intended to print with the parts it was designed to have.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:02 am
by Eaglezsoar
Nylocke wrote:I can tell you for a fact that the stock RAMBo can run NEMA23s, there is an old RapMan I am upgrading with NEMA23s driving XY and Z and it works great.

I believe that the Rapman was the open frame cube style printer? I am amazed that the Rambo can drive the Nema23 motors because they require more current than the Nema 17
motors but if you are doing it then it has to work. I would imagine everything on the Rambo is heat sinked and air cooled? I would love to see pictures of that setup for it certainly
is unique.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:06 pm
by Eric
Eaglezsoar wrote:
Nylocke wrote:I can tell you for a fact that the stock RAMBo can run NEMA23s, there is an old RapMan I am upgrading with NEMA23s driving XY and Z and it works great.

I believe that the Rapman was the open frame cube style printer? I am amazed that the Rambo can drive the Nema23 motors because they require more current than the Nema 17
motors but if you are doing it then it has to work. I would imagine everything on the Rambo is heat sinked and air cooled? I would love to see pictures of that setup for it certainly
is unique.


That's because the Allegro A9882 or A9884 found on the Rambo, or the A9888 used in my Ramps, is capable of putting out up to 2A of output, controlled by digipots on the Rambo and manual pots on Ramps. Most Nema-17's (versions and specs will vary) aren't going to need more than 1A. Nema-23's may want a bit more, but 2A is still sufficient for most, and if you're only asking them to do a smaller motors job, they won't need it all. The chips are heatsinked on the bottom to the board copper, but you may want to add a cooling fan and top heatsinks if you're pushing them hard.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:38 pm
by CJGerard
The more i think about it the more i like the idea of 2 17's, to have that basically all i would have to do is wire the 2 on the same axis together?

I've been debating on placing a cooling fan on the Rambo anyway. I have seen post where others have done it and it doesn't look like it will hurt anything.

As for testing out the machine SeeMeCNC out did themselves and i received the motor today. The printer is warming up now and im about to begin another round of calibration and test prints. I'll keep you guys updated.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:04 pm
by Eaglezsoar
CJGerard wrote:The more i think about it the more i like the idea of 2 17's, to have that basically all i would have to do is wire the 2 on the same axis together?

I've been debating on placing a cooling fan on the Rambo anyway. I have seen post where others have done it and it doesn't look like it will hurt anything.

As for testing out the machine SeeMeCNC out did themselves and i received the motor today. The printer is warming up now and im about to begin another round of calibration and test prints. I'll keep you guys updated.


Comment one: I can't help with that one, doubling up the motors is just not my area of expertise.
Comment two: I have a fan blowing on each of my rambos and I think it is just a good thing to do.

I'm glad you got the motor and it is my sincere wish for you to get it up and running to your satisfaction.
You and yours have been through enough with this printer. I truly hope that this will be the end of the problems for you.
Please contact us again as soon as you need anything, as you can tell there are people on this forum who will help you.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:12 pm
by Eric
CJGerard wrote:The more i think about it the more i like the idea of 2 17's, to have that basically all i would have to do is wire the 2 on the same axis together?


Essentially, yes. If you had an extra motor, you could even test that aspect without doing any mechanical work. Wire it up for the 2nd Z connector and let it run on the desk in sync with the Z-motor in the printer. A bit of tape on the shaft makes motion easier to see.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:19 pm
by CJGerard
Eric wrote: Essentially, yes. If you had an extra motor, you could even test that aspect without doing any mechanical work. Wire it up for the 2nd Z connector and let it run on the desk in sync with the Z-motor in the printer. A bit of tape on the shaft makes motion easier to see.


Sweet I'll give it a shot (probably over x-mas). It looks like this print is coming out alot smoother than the previous prints i attempted. The max will probably be left alone for now, there is no jerking, stalling ,or hesitation at all. :D

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:21 am
by geneb
From where I sit, the idea of adding an additional stepper motor to each tower is just nuts, but that's me I guess. :) Other than the "Hey, that's really kind of interesting" factor, there's no actual justification for it.

g.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:23 am
by CJGerard
geneb wrote:From where I sit, the idea of adding an additional stepper motor to each tower is just nuts, but that's me I guess. :) Other than the "Hey, that's really kind of interesting" factor, there's no actual justification for it.

g.


It's one of those things that i might do to see what happens. Sometimes it works out great and sometimes it doesn't. You always learn something from the experience though.

Re: Putting Larger motors on a RS Max?

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:19 pm
by Nylocke
The RAMBo on the RapMan has no active or passive cooling on it whatsoever. It is simply sitting in a printed ABS box.