BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:07 pm

It works fine for thicker materials but this very thin stuff discussed above is very tricky to get smoothed out.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by gestalt73 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:45 am

mhackney wrote:That's 3mil - .003". Barely thicker than the diameter of a hair. Caveat emptor.


Gah! good catch, goofy imperial units. I just saw the 3 and assumed it was plenty thick. :-/

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by geneb » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:16 am

Would Windex work? (and I'm ordering PEI today...you guys finally got me. *laughs*)

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:54 am

Yes, windex works perfectly and actually evaporates a little quicker too.

FINALLY Gene, FINALLY.

When using the "wet" application technique (I'll add this to my thread when I get the new sheets in tomorrow) here are some tips:

• apply the adhesive to the cleaned glass first - dry
• remove the backing tape and spritz the adhesive with windex or water with just a little liquid soap in it - you don't want suds
• apply the clean PEI carefully starting at one "edge" and moving across the plate to the other
• squeegee out excess liquid from center to periphery with a credit card or other non-scratching plastic squeegee
• install on printer and cure like this:
• heat bed to 25°C for 1 hr
• check to see of most of liquid has evaporated, if so, increase temp to 40°C for 15 minutes
• increase temp to 55°C until completely evaporated

Use PEI and enjoy its awesomeness.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by geneb » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:34 am

Don't you want to use Windex on the glass side as well to avoid bubbles?

tnx.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:07 pm

It is very difficult to put the "raw" adhesive sheet down that way.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by gestalt73 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:20 pm

Hey mhackney, that's exactly what I was planning on doing until you said that. What were you seeing when you floated the adhesive sheet separately above the glass?

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by Polygonhell » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:58 pm

mhackney wrote:5 mil. That is going to be prone to tearing and any bubbles when applying will telegraph through to the surface. I experimented with various thicknesses 3 years ago and 30 to 40 mil is the best bang for the buck, lasts for years and doesn't telegraph adhesive bubbles.


I agree with this, I have 1/2 a dozen 10 mil sheets and they tear too easily, and getting the acrylic adhesive off the glass is not something I would describe as fun. I use a 30 mil sheet on my Max, and have for over a year and I've yet to damage it,

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by DeltaCon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:42 am

Jimustanguitar wrote:For $21, I guess I'll give PEI a try.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01 ... UTF8&psc=1

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by DeltaCon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:22 am

Jimustanguitar wrote:The dish soap and water "slip" sounds a lot like the application fluid that window tint and vinyl graphic installers will use. Whether it's a slippery concoction or a mild solvent for the adhesive, it lets you slide the pieces around until you've got them positioned the way you want them, and then you squeegee out the air bubbles to set it. It's "the" way to apply something like this without any air bubbles. Granted, it takes a bit of practice, and it's not easy with the PEI sheet being semi-rigid, but it still ought to work.

Yes, just a drop of (preferably the odour free old-fashioned kind, because additions might discolour) dish soap in a spray bottle does the trick. I am a signmaker (as a hobby besides my IT job) and we use that a lot. Let it dry overnight though before you start using it. That's the difficult part... ;-) I use this also for applying kapton on top of glass or on the below side of alu heatspreader (to prevent shortening the heatbed if it damages).
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:32 am

@gestalt73 - bubbles that you can't smooth out without tearing the adhesive. And as Polygonhell said, that adhesive is a PIA to remove and once it clumps up, it's over.

@DeltaCon - You can also use the heating schedule I posted above to warm and dry out the water. A question for you related to above - have you had success installing the the first side of the 3M adhesive sheet this way? I've wasted a lot of 3M and time attempting it.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by DeltaCon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:35 am

mhackney wrote:@DeltaCon - You can also use the heating schedule I posted above to warm and dry out the water. A question for you related to above - have you had success installing the the first side of the 3M adhesive sheet this way? I've wasted a lot of 3M and time attempting it.


No, I have not had any success with that, but that is because I have had no attempt at all ;-) (yet...)
I am not using any PEI at the moment, but have been interested for a while. I am going duet at the moment, have the bal-cup arms and skates coming in soon, and as you always say: don't change more than one parameter at a time ;-)

If I understand all correctly I would first take the plate (glass or alu does not matter) and adhere the 3M to it. Use the wet-method like described above. After that dries up, take off the second liner, wet the sticky surface and adhere the PEI to it with plenty of soap solution (because the PEI is probably a bit stiff). For a squeegee you can use anything that is stiff, flat and easy to gripp enough. While "squeegeeing" hold up the PEI at one side of the bed, so that you "roll" the pei from one side to another. That prevents water from getting caught in bubbles that you cannot remove because it is already sticking around the bubble. It is always easier to stick a flexible material to a stiff material that sticking two flexible materials to eachother, that's why I would start with the plate.
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:26 am

@DeltaCon - "as you always say: don't change more than one parameter at a time ;-)" - you learn quickly Grasshopper!

My PEI and 3M adhesive was just delivered via Amazon Prime. Needs to warm up and this print needs to finish and then I'll install and update my PEI thread. The PEI is a bit thinner that the material we used to purchase from Amazon directly or McMaster but it is still thick enough not to be fragile and in fact, might be better from a thermal conductivity perspective. I probably would have tried this thickness earlier if it were readily available.

The issue with the wet method for the "raw" adhesive is that it gets liquid bubbles that are difficult to remove. But I am going to take one for the team and try it again with Windex - a very light spray. Stay tuned.

Your rolling technique is exactly what I do with the PEI and works quite well. I am going to try that with the adhesive disk too.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by geneb » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:58 am

I've got a brayer around here somewhere....
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:32 am

Ok Gene, normally I get your humor immediately and certainly if I think about it for a minute. But "brayer"? No amount of analysis yields humor in from that term used in this context. Please elucidate!

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by Mac The Knife » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:08 pm

I believe that falls in the category of a pun,,,
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:34 am

Well, my attempt at using the float method to attache the first side of the 3M adhesive was a fail. It actually seemed to be going very well. I got the 3M adhesive attached and squeegeed out. There were minimal little bubbles which I was certain would dry out.
IMG_7450.JPG

I then attempted to remove the paper backing and all heck broke loose. The film stuck more to the backing than the glass plate and as soon as you have a lift or tear, it's all over. So I had to scrape and clean the adhesive off the glass as an aborted attempt.

In looking at my photos, I'm wondering if I was installing it upside down. I assumed both paper backings were the same but in retrospect it looks like the white side - the side I used first to attach to the glass - is siliconized paper (i.e. non stick) and the brown kraft paper side is not. This kraft paper side has a little tab you can see in the photo so I assumed that was to make it easier to separate to apply the second surface. I am now thinking that I should have done it the other way around.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:41 am

I ordered 5 more 3M disks from Amazon so I have some more test cases. Arrive on Tuesday. If anyone else wants to test my theory, feel free!

It makes sense though. After I started peeling the kraft paper side off, it touched the film in 1 spot ever so slightly and that was all it took. Once aborted I tested the white siliconized paper and it wouldn't stick for heck or high water.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by geneb » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:38 am

Brayer: Image

g.
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:53 pm

Ah! Thanks Gene. I have something similar called a J roller. Use it all the time.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by gestalt73 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:17 pm

Hey mhackney, thanks for "taking one for the team".

My next two sheets are arriving tomorrow.

What do you think the trick will be to get the adhesive to adhese to the glass plate through the [windex / soapy water]?
I'm wondering if you'll have a similar issue if you remove the 3m backing and try to leave the adhesive layer on the wax paper?

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:49 pm

I've done this with 2" wide 3M strip tape. First I lay the strips down on the glass dry. Remove the paper backing and then spritz the PEI with Windex. That works fine and a squeegee or even a Brayer will smooth out the bubbles.

I don't know what will happen when I use the other side of the adhesive first. But given that they are two different backing materials there "must" be a reason for it! I suspect the brown kraft side should go on the glass first. Wet should be fine. The white siliconized paper seems to be waterproof whereas the brown side soaks up water. The adhesive also can be stuck and restuck to the white stuff but not the brown. These give some confidence that it should work.

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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by Xenocrates » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:10 pm

My typical method has been to apply it to the PEI first, although my sheets have come with brown backers on both sides (However, they do appear to be siliconized). I tended to go for it since adjusting it on the aluminum plate is a complete shit show without any way to see how the adhesive is behaving. I also found it worthwhile to stagger the applications to let it dry overnight, which prevented most of the issues. However, I do believe Mike's heating method would work (Admittedly, I would probably do it with the PEI down towards the bed if I was drying it after applying the tape to it, with the plate/glass on top to hold it flat, and a weight on it). But I definetly do it wet for both parts, and once I figured it out, I haven't wrecked a tape sheet since. (4 applications, 5 tape sheets used, 1 was given away with some PEI to ENABLE in my area)
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by Mac The Knife » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:29 pm

geneb wrote:Brayer: Image

g.



Also a brayer,,,
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Re: BuildTak, GeckoTek, ZebraPlate, FabLam, what are the cool kids using?

Post by mhackney » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:32 pm

I like yours better (and that's actually what I though Gene was joking about).

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