Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

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Stevolution
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Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:15 pm

Hi all. New to the 3D printing world (although pretty handy and clued up on electronics and kit building).

Planning on ordering a RoStock Max V2. Thought I would check through a few mods that appear to be popular.

New Hot end - possibly a E3D V6. Does this improve the retraction issues I keep reading about? Or is that more down to the Bowden system as a whole?

Other items to upgrade appear to be Stepper dampeners and carbon arms.

What is the issue with the PSU? A lot of people are upgrading or jumping over to a 24v PSU for the bed. If there are so many issues with the supplied PSU, how come that hasn't been rectified at the manufacturers?

It was a throw up in the air between this printer and a Velleman K8200. I think I like the design of this one better and also the bigger printer area.

Hoping to jump in feet first later this week!

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Jimustanguitar » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm

The SeeMe "stock" hot-end has improved a lot lately. I'm actually thinking about buying the newest version to add to my arsenal. Unless the money is burning a hole in your pocket, there's not a glitch that a different model fixes differently than any other offering. The only unquestionable reason that you'd want something like an E3D over the stock end is that it's all metal and can print higher temperature materials like nylon. Maybe print for a while stock before you decide where to go next. (I'd also suspect that we'll see an all metal hot-end from SeeMe in the near future. They posted some teaser photos a while back.)

The carbon arms are definitely a nice upgrade. Trick Laser makes great products. I've got a personal bias, as I know Brian personally, but I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees on the product quality or machine improvement.

Dampeners are a toss up. The stock machine isn't loud, some folks just wish it was quieter. There's also some conjecture about whether the rubber mounting allows motor movement that could potentially cause inaccuracies (arguably minuscule, but plausible). I've got them on mine. And it's definitely much easier to install when you're building the machine, so...

ATX power supplies are cheap Chinese crap. A certain percentage of them are DOA, some fail prematurely, and others chug on forever. If you have a bad unit, SeeMe will swap it for you. The reason that people upgrade to 24v is to heat up the bed faster. With more voltage (and money) you can heat up to 100c and beyond in a few minutes instead of 10+.

Not familiar with the Velleman, but I'll have to look it up. It sounds like you're a handy person, so you'll like the hackability and open source nature of the Rostock. Plus the support community is the best one out there.

Welcome to the forum!

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by jdurand » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:44 pm

The problem with the power supply is these kits are designed so the user never touches anything over 12V, it's as safe as putting together a PC. So, given that you need a pre-assembled, agency certified supply power supply in high-wattage range. Therein lies the problem. PC power supplies claim to have zillions of Watts available but they know your PC doesn't really need it so they lie...a lot. Often if you can find a data sheet the power is "peak" as in starting up your disk drives once per power cycle.

What about industrial power supplies that are ready made with no exposed AC power? $$$$ Nobody would pay that much.

So, these get shipped with PC power supplies that are cheap and often work.

What people like me have done is buy industrial supplies of the type where you have to hook up your own AC power. These can be had for about $30 if you don't need the UL/ETA safety sticker on them. In doing so if we get shocked, burn the house down or whatever, SeeMeCNC is not liable for it.

It all boils down to lawyers.
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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by jdurand » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:48 pm

On heating up the bed faster, many people who go from an ATX supply to 24V would probably have been happy with a real 12V supply or maybe 15V. The ATX power supplies are known for poor regulation on the 12V output as in 11V is "close enough". Jumping all the way from 11V to 24V is like going after gophers in a golf course with dynamite. It DOES work, but I question if it was really necessary.
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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:24 pm

Thanks guys.

I have a large crate in my workshop full of PSU's... I will have a look through there and see what I have. Giving the bed its own PSU sounds like a good plan.

I will hold off on the replacement hot-end until I am more proficient at printing and see what comes to market and what I need.

Certainly will replace the carbon arms as they seem to be popular.

Now where's my credit card....

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by jdurand » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:34 pm

Note that if you're thinking of ever going to dual print heads, you'll need to replace one fuse on the Rambo with a 10A. Adding up the fuses that gives 15A for bed, 5A for general stuff and 10A for the heads = 30A. So, if you have a "real" 12V supply good for 30 Amps or preferably more, you should be good to go.

If you raise the voltage on the bed, remember the current goes up at the same time. The bed draws about 12A at 12V so it's 144W, at 24V it will draw 24A = 576 Watts (gee, I wonder why people say it heats up faster!).
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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by jram » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:26 am

I've taken the advice of some on the forum and I'm running mostly stock other than a new 650 watt Psu. The max v2 prints excellent with the stock setup. That said, a dual hot end and carbon arms are on my list just because I can't leave it alone.
Machines- Rostock Max v2 with E3D v6, Corsair 750 power supply, PEI bed,injection molded carriages and new arms. Aluminum mount. X carve with x controller. Stratasys Uprint SE

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:11 pm

Thanks for all the heads up guys. I am an electrician.. so tinkering with the PSU isn't a problem.

I read that the kit comes with bare MDF parts in the UK due to some problem with the Melamine finish? Is that correct? Seems a shame if the first job is to paint the parts.
Not overly convinced I like the thought of MDF parts... but hey, it must work.
The only retailer in the UK I have found so far is RoboSavvy

Couple of newbie type questions... the finish. I assume for a real smooth finish (perhaps before painting if required), you can simply sand the printed item.

I would like to print some custom enclosures for electronic projects. Any foreseeable issues with that? Obviously I would print the case and lid separately.
Not sure if ABS or PLA is better. Not had any experience with either!

Finally, what software do people prefer. I am going to download a whole load of trials tonight. Free would be nice... already spending a lump on the printer!

I have had experience with Blender a while back. Might download that and have another play.

Thanks all

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RocketMagnet » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:15 pm

I'm UK and ordered Directly from SeeMeCNC (an Orion) and you can save a bit of money as the UK suppliers add a profit margin obviously (was about £250+ ish last sept).

Overall it's a fair bit cheaper buying direct but takes a few weeks in total but if your building a max it gives you time to sort out other stuff.
You get a tracking number so you can see exactly where it is at all times (they send you email updates if you set that up also) even when it hits the UK the tracking number works for parcel force. It then gets to your local depot and they send you a letter with the import charges that you pay online and it comes next day parcelforce.

I placed my order on 23/9 and it was shipped on the 26/9 once it arrived in the UK it lived at the HRMC for a few days then arrived at my local Depot and I received a letter within a day or with import payment details, so paid import duty online on the 14/10 and it arrived on the 15/10.

So my costs were $1299 + ($27 for 3X spare Nozzles) + $172 shipping ($1498.80). I was also charged ~£28 for the Transaction by my CCard company.
Import Tax was £179.80 on top that.

The Dollar was a lot weaker than it is now so I paid £880+179.80+28 = £1077 including 3 spare Nozzles so ~1050 in reality Vs £1320 from RS. So guess a max would be similar but smaller saving? So if you get it on sale at Robosavvy then it's probably not worth importing.

Additional Stuff I ordered later from SeeMeCNC I should have done initially was a couple of spare build plates, really handy to swap out quickly and if you break one which is possible.. so your not waiting a few weeks for a replacement (cant find anywhere in the UK/EU for them).

I generally use ABS (3D Filaprint.. order direct its much cheaper than 3D Filaprint filament on amazon) stuff is cheap and so far it's been flawless for me.. got ~10 1kg rolls and they have all be excellent so far). The only time I've used PLA is for boxy enclosures as its less prone to warping and lifting off the build plate but im better with ABS now (got my Glue technique sorted). I made an enclosure out of PLA for an Arduino project with LCD screen.. yeah split in two and screwed together.

Easiest software to get going is Tinkercad (its cloud based so this spoils it) its ultra limited and basic but its very quick for simple stuff, FreeCad is pretty good and im learning that now. I didn't get on with 123D.

Other stuff I'd buy prior is replace the supplied Rambo board fan with a 40mm Noctua Fan and get hold of a spare 25mm Peek fan as a significant number suffer infant mortality

Personally no issues with the Stock hot end, never had a single jam. Anyway hope that helps and isn't too much waffle...

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Nareikuk » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:14 pm

I'm in the UK too. Got my Rostock Max from Robosavvy for under 900 delivered to Northern Ireland. The MDF parts were all melamine coated, not sure the kit would work at all well without the coating.

I agree with replacing the RAMBO fan with the noctua. The stock hotend worked well for me, but I had also bought an E3Dv6 which works very well, especially at higher temperatures.

Both PLA and ABS print fine with either hotend. I have had some splitting issues with ABS on some types of prints... Almost all my filament is from 3DFilaprint. They seem to offer a good service and have a large range of filaments.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:33 pm

Thanks for the advice guys - appreciated

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by jram » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:57 pm

+1 on getting a new fan for the Rambo, I also ordered a few different size nozzles though I haven't used them as of yet.I use Form Z pro 8 to do most of my modeling, I teach so I have an educator license but I'm pretty sure that you can get a free version. I then run my models through Netfabb to repair any errors. http://www.netfabb.com/
Machines- Rostock Max v2 with E3D v6, Corsair 750 power supply, PEI bed,injection molded carriages and new arms. Aluminum mount. X carve with x controller. Stratasys Uprint SE

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:05 pm

Well I have a shopping list now. I will upgrade the Rambo fan and get a spare 25mm fan.

Where do you get the carbon arms from? Anywhere in the UK?

Also, are replacement build plates necessary?

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Jimustanguitar » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:44 pm

Trick Laser will ship to you in the UK, I think it's just not listed on the website that way because it calculates shipping weird or something like that.

Send Brian a PM and see what you can work out.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RocketMagnet » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:08 pm

Stevolution wrote:Well I have a shopping list now. I will upgrade the Rambo fan and get a spare 25mm fan.

Where do you get the carbon arms from? Anywhere in the UK?

Also, are replacement build plates necessary?


No spare build plates are not necessary. I bought some because they are ultimately a long lead time to get hold of in the UK.
I use the glue stick method and it means you take of your build plate off periodically to wash it... same for hair spray, so technically you could go all butter fingers and break it.

I also find PLA prints with large contact areas can stick like super glue and soaking the whole build plate in soapy water is the safest method I've found to free
the stubborn ones. While its soaking I put another build plate on.. technically the plates could be slightly different thickness so this would adjust your Z height.. but the two I use are the same - my spare is packed away.

Many people buy some Tupperware to store their filament in with some desiccant. I got some of the large (10 litre) sealable tubs from Morrisons (£3 each) and I get 3X 1kg reels in each. I bought indicating Silica Gel from Ebay for the desiccant.
2014-12-28 17.31.00.jpg
Morrisons tubs with desiccant in base - some printed tripod stands in each also

only got 2X in each in the photo but you can fit 3 in.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Tonkabot » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:42 pm

I use hairspray exclusively so far - I tried the glue sticks and 3m spray and those sucked for me.

occasionally with ABS, hairspray, and a large flat thing I get the ends curling up. But not always.

Anyway, All I have ever used to clean my borosilcate glass is a razor blade. it just scrapes it all right off.
This is what I use:
http://images.utrechtart.com/products/o ... crap_X.jpg
I have one of these somewhere, but I would have to find it:
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/produc ... d5_300.jpg

No spare build plates are not necessary. I bought some because they are ultimately a long lead time to get hold of in the UK.
I use the glue stick method and it means you take of your build plate off periodically to wash it... same for hair spray, so technically you could go all butter fingers and break it.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RocketMagnet » Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:32 am

I've found with glue sticks I need a single thin transparent layer of glue for PLA & a thick opaque layer for ABS.
For ABS a warm room with no drafts and the Z height spot on with a thick layer of glue then I don't personally have too may issues unless the part surface contact area is low... but then i'll use a brim.

I tried scraping but it's not very good with thick layers of baked on glue and you've still got to clean up the residue, I'm lazy so 30 seconds in the sink with some warm soapy water and a small sponge (I use one of them dish cleaners where you fill the handle with washing up liquid), rinse, and its done.
Not tried hairspray yet, I wondered how much it gunks things up over time as it goes everywhere.. but i've also heard it really good though?.. but just using Elmers glue sticks (packs of 30 7g sticks off Amazon - £16-20). Though I do believe people dissolve a few of the water soluble glue slicks in some water and brush or spray this solution on to get a more even distribution of glue. Personally I think its a great idea but so far I've not tried it.

Other out of the box upgrades are Astrosyn Dampers (They are in the UK btw) , they sit between the stepper motors and the printer body to reduce vibration transfer from motor to body. Reduces the noise a fair bit... I fitted some to the Orion and it was a marked difference. Some discussion around effectiveness but when I buy a Max in the future I'd buy them again for it if I didn't have some spares already... (you can only by 10 at a time from Astrosyn but it's <£30 IIRC).

Many people also add some 12V 60mm Halo Lights to their hot end.. ideally you need to run a direct 12V feed from the PSU as if you tap off the Layer fan or peek fan wires they are PWM from the Rambo board so can cause the lights to flicker. Your a spark so you'll clearly know better than me anyway :)

Many people also upgrade their power supply... lots of info already on PSUs on the site.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:35 am

Thanks for all this great advice guys.
Making a list and pretty sure I know what I am ordering.
I was going to wait for the Rostock Max v2 to be in a sale... but that will only happen the week after I order it :roll:

There seems to be a lot of love for the dissolved glue sticks in water method. Its time to trial and error I think.

I have tons of LEDS in my electronics workshop. I will illuminate the hot end using some high brightness white LEDS I expect.

The only thing I am not sure whether its worth buying to start is the E3D hot end. Doubt I will ever do the dual hot end mod... can't see me ever needing 2 colours in a project.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:40 pm

Might seem like a REAL newbie question. But is the controller that is included with the RoStock Max v2 kit the same as this one?

http://seemecnc.com/collections/parts-a ... controller

Or are they different things?

I really wish all these various parts were available in one place! Carbon arms one place, printer in another, dampners in another, E3D V6 in another.... :?

Any links or suggestions to UK suppliers will be received gratefully. Googling like mad at the moment.

Whats the difference between the white and Black printer? I assume purely the colour of the panels

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RocketMagnet » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:29 pm

Yeah that's the controller that connects to the Rambo board (which is based on an Arduino Mega, to access and upgrade the software in the Rambo you need the Arduino development environment.. oddly the latest version doesn't work with the Rambo and you need Arduino 1.0.6 or another earlier version). It allows you to control your printer (access the Rambo board) and in conjunction with the SD card slot use it standalone to print without a PC acting as the interface.

Some useful links for UK & General good links:
http://3dfilaprint.com/
http://astrosyn.com/section.php/44/1/vi ... 01e48893ce
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elmers-E556-Was ... elmer+glue
http://proto-pic.co.uk/
http://www.arduino.cc/
http://repables.com/search/seemecnc/
http://www.thingiverse.com/
http://reprap.org/wiki/Rambo
http://reprapelectro.com/wp-content/upl ... Manual.pdf

For the manuals and other useful files
http://seemecnc.com/pages/downloads

Black is black laminate and white is white laminate coating.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Nareikuk » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:13 am

I've ordered 10 of the dampers from astrosyn, so if anyone in the UK wants a set, let me know. Astrosyns minimum order is 10 units, but we only need 3.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:52 am

I have to say this forum is a wealth of information and helpful people, and I am looking forward to putting something back into the community (hopefully useful!) as soon as I am up and running.

Right then.... lets beat this credit card to death

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RegB » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:31 am

My Max was shipped in early July 2014, with a (claimed) 650 watt supply.
I haven't had a power supply "failure", but the machine did shut down unexpectedly one time soon after I put all the base covers on.
I had left it "naked" for quite a while, until I felt it was fully functional.
Based ONLY on posts here about power supplies and possible overheat shutting down I removed the plastic cover behind the Z tower.
It hasn't shut down since.

I doubt the wisdom of using higher voltage supplies for quicker bed warm up -- sure, it will reach target temperature quicker where detected and faster heating probably makes the PID loop "better", but there is a LOT of thermal mass in the base structure that continues to expand until it reaches a steady temperature - and stable dimensions.

If you have doubts about the capacity or quality of the power supply in the kit it could be worth making it an ESU (easily serviced unit) i.e. don't build the base AROUND it, put it on the bench/table behind or beside the printer.
I don't know how I'll ever get mine out if I need to, I'll either "find a way" or ...???
Any replacement WILL be external, I know that much.
Putting a new one in has to be worse than getting a failed one out.

EDIT:
Another "against the prevailing wisdom" point;
I have found foam gaskets between motor faces and the mounting surface, plus rubber grommets with washers under the (longer) screw heads to be quieter than the astrosyn dampers.
They also don't require the belt toothed sprockets to be moved "out" so far - the standard build is for them to be flush to the end of the motor shaft.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by Stevolution » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:22 am

I dug around my workshop last night and found a new 750w and and new 850w PSU.
I may fit the 750w PSU instead (its a good make) and stick with the 12v supply for the bed. I am not worried about waiting for it to heat up.

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Re: Newbie in the room. Lots of spending to come.

Post by RocketMagnet » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:24 am

I've also got 7 spare Astrosyn dampers but wasn't too fussed to sell any on unless anyone really wanted some.

My Orion still has it's stock PSU and so far has been fine even in a warm room.

I tend to use 1000W Corsair PSUs for most gaming PCs I build for friends and TBH it's what I'd use for a max tho probably <1000W model, overkill I suppose but I've got one spare but even if I didn't I'd probably buy another from the RM series. So many wasted hours trouble shooting which turned out as crappy PSUs.

Agreed replacing the PSU post build looks like major hassle. Had a look at sticking my spare corsair into my Orion and decided to wait :), its working fine so leave it alone but yeah from scratch I definitely wouldn't put the stock one in.

On a side note Astrosyn could also supply replacement/additional stepper motors.

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