Expecting to much from the Max V3?

The new for 2016 Rostock MAX v3!
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Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:18 am

I'm tired of my Flashforge Creator Pro and the bad build plate design that requires fiddling with calibration all the time when I replace glass plates since it's so loose. Considering getting a Rostock Max V3 instead since it has auto calibration and a larger build plate. Delta's also look awesome! I will however ask here first if my expectations are to high so I can get the crushed upfront instead of on delivery :D

What I'm expecting is a printer that require 25-35hours assembly/dial in time (it is my first scratch build). From then on it can print many prints with only using the auto calibration upfront. I will print with Taulman 910, ABS and PLA like I do now with my FFCP. I also expect the prints to be of equal or higher quality than my FFCP can do today. With time I'd also like to use smoothieboard or duet wifi to get a web interface and a 32bit controller. Am I expecting to much?

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Noircogi » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:07 pm

It doesn't take that long to build and set up.
It uses a larger nozzle by default so features will not be as fine unless you change nozzles.
It will run a long time without maintenance once set up properly..
You don't need to re-calibrate unless you move it or something once it's up and running.
I recommend a rapberry pi v3 ($35) running octoprint and you can have wireless printing from the start.
SeeMeCNC has promised a 32-bit controller in the future, but at least one person has done his own interface using a Teensy 3.2 to make the accelerometer work with Duet.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:58 pm

I know it's expected with 20hours or so build time but I know that I will be taking my time reading and watching videos while doing it so it will be longer. I don't mind that tho as long as the whole ownership isn't adjusting and tweaking on it. If I do mod's that's another thing but I'd like it to be able to print and print once it's setup if I decide to do a long run without modding.

I also read that on the facebook group. Almost tempted to wait on that since they said it was a few months ahead back in september.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by cloneit3d » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:30 pm

Minim wrote:I'm tired of my Flashforge Creator Pro and the bad build plate design that requires fiddling with calibration all the time when I replace glass plates since it's so loose. Considering getting a Rostock Max V3 instead since it has auto calibration and a larger build plate. Delta's also look awesome! I will however ask here first if my expectations are to high so I can get the crushed upfront instead of on delivery :D

What I'm expecting is a printer that require 25-35hours assembly/dial in time (it is my first scratch build). From then on it can print many prints with only using the auto calibration upfront. I will print with Taulman 910, ABS and PLA like I do now with my FFCP. I also expect the prints to be of equal or higher quality than my FFCP can do today. With time I'd also like to use smoothieboard or duet wifi to get a web interface and a 32bit controller. Am I expecting to much?


I have had several printers and was hoping to do a lot less tweaking on the V3 and that has not been the case. Auto-calibrate did not work properly on my machine, others had the same problem. SeeMeCNC has just come up with a multiple point calibration, actually someone else's work, which requires numbers be input online, from your printer's terminal window, or from the EEPROM etc., to run calculations, then g-code is run to update the EEPROM. This is supposed to give a very level bed but my prints are telling me there are still problems. This is also the first printer I have had with a Bowdren filament feed system and my hot end jams up a lot. I like to print the Taulmen fillaments as well as lots of PLA and a little ABS. So far I have printed PLA and a little ABS. The bed does not heat up fast past 50C, takes awhile to get to 70C, I have not had it any higher yet. It is a very fast printer and the print volume is awesome. I guess the point is the machine was new in September but not all the bugs were worked out. I run mine using a Pi3 running Octoprint. Despite tweaking and tweaking the slicer my prints are not great quality but they are slowly getting better. Please do not let my experience detract you as the customer service is second to none, they get right back to you with solutions and the printer is well built, I just need to get mine dialed in and it is almost there. Best of luck and please read the forum as it is very active and there are some very smart people on here that have done a lot of work and they will help you.
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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:58 pm

Thank you for your honest description and opinion of it. It does not scare me off but it gives keeps me from being disappointed when it arrives. It does sound like software problems tho so they might just need some more time to iron things out. I'm also going to be using Taulman a lot so your experience on that would mean a lot. I suspect it will be even more chance of troubles with the bowden system since it's printing at 250C at the "top end" of the extruder.

I'm also very curious on the comment they made on the Facebook page in September that they where testing a 32-bit controller that was coming in "months". It will suck if I buy it now and right after Christmas this new board is ready and shipping.. Might just read up on this printer and study delta's for a while and see what they do about this 32bit controller board.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by mhackney » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:52 pm

The V3 is right at the edge of being a fantastic machine with its new auto calibration capability based on David Crocker's auto calibration. The design, materials, components are all quite respectable. Build is straight forward and well documented. Calibration is the "pain" with delta printers. The accelerometer probe in the HE280 is proving to be reliable and precise. The initial implementation of auto calibration in the Repetier firmware was not quite up to the task. But, this is firmware and can be tweaked and changed. But the greatest leap forward occurred in the last week with the calibration wizard for OctoPrint. This does require a Raspberry Pi but, frankly, this is really the best way to control and manage your printer in my opinion. It eliminates all of the USB related hiccups and other problems and provides a great web interface so you can control from any web browser - computer, pad or phone. Really nice. But, now that geneb has integrated David's auto calibration code so it controls and updates the EEPROM directly, I put OctoPrint in the "necessity" category. I'm turning out really nice (and some even spectacular prints) once I had my calibration issue resolved - which could always be done manually for those of us silverbacks.

Get the V3 and RaspberryPi, you won't be disappointed. I haven't printed Taulman on my V3 yet, that requires the Jet fixture for the hotend which has been unubtanium.

A 32 bit controller is immenent. Some of us are pushing for Duet as it has the most sophisticated firmware and web control on the market by a god lead. Stay tuned! But updating to whatever 32 bit controller will be straightforward. I can't put words in SeeMeCNC's mouths but I seriously doubt if we'll see a new controller before Q2. Midwest Maker Fair would be a good launch venue.

It's like anything, you can always wait for the next best thing and never bite the bullet. There is really nothing wrong with the current setup for most user's recreational printing. And RAMBos have a pretty good resell value.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Qdeathstar » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:50 pm

i love my v2, i have a newer edition of it so it's basically a v3 except the main differences are a different hot end and better frame. I love my v2, but, i still get a failed print for every 4-5 prints. I don't mind them, and i'm sure with more experience i can do better. Most things are failed because of my own mistakes, for example my latest fail was spent trying to figure out why my z-height was too high, it turned out that i had sliced the object off the bed... derp.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Polygonhell » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:38 pm

The Max is a good printer, but Cartesian printers are always going to be easier to get setup well.

I would not expect to build it press a button, have it auto-calibrate and start pulling perfect prints off it, once it's well setup, it should produce consistently good results.

I bought an UP Mini 2 recently, out of interest, it's a very simple cartesian design, I took it out of the box, attached the filament, loaded the software and it produced excellent prints with no calibation, your just not going to get that from a Delta. Auto calibration helps a great deal with deltas and DC42 is the best one I've used, but the quality of the results are still heavily dependent on the quality of the mechanical build.

Most modern Cartesian printers don't have the layer alignment/Z issues that plagued them 5 years ago and at this point I find it hard to find a quantifiable advantage in delta designs (other than possibly lower component count), they vastly complicate setup, and can produce comparable quality to a good cartesian design..

Having said that I own 3 delta printers and my goto printer right now is one of them, but it has as much to do with the design of the cooling system as it does the geometry.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:25 pm

Lots of good input here :) So basically even with this autocalibration I will find myself more time tweaking than printing compared to my flashforge once everything is setup right? I just followed a the tip regarding Octoprint on my current setup now and went to the store and got a Raspi3. It was a quick setup and 1 hour after unpacking it was done with the first testcube print. This is going to be so much nicer already but I'm still considering a upgrade to some printer with a better levering procedure..

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Xenocrates » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:10 pm

I've played with the Lulzbot Taz 6 with it's bed leveling, and then I have my V2 (It's heavily modified, and uses a Duet controller with FSR based autocalibration, but I don't really use autocalibration since I have it pretty stably dialed in for my purposes.) Even before I added autocalibration, I had a few fails, mostly when first trying new prints, but unlike the Taz 6, it was very consistent about making a part once it was working. The Taz's seem to have more than a little weirdness in the Z-probe offset and some other minor issues (I had to disassemble most of the tool head to clear a heatbreak jam). The V3 seems to be very consistent in probing, and with the new calculator, the tweaking will be mostly for filament rather than printer issues, and unless you plan to buy high price filament and only use one kind and color from one provider and batch, is unavoidable.
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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:59 am

So there is basically no advantage to go delta besides the cool looks? :X

Is the Duet wifi even a option for the V3? As far as I can find out it is not supporting the accelerometer probing so that would make the calibration process manual again :/

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by geneb » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:02 am

Speed. They all print about the same, but the delta design wins hands down when it comes to rapid, non-print moves. It's also not shaking the part all over the place during a print.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:19 am

geneb wrote:Speed. They all print about the same, but the delta design wins hands down when it comes to rapid, non-print moves. It's also not shaking the part all over the place during a print.

g.


From what I've seen on this forum it seems like most are printing slower than I usually do on my Cartesian tho. How much speed increase approx is there?

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Polygonhell » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:02 pm

geneb wrote:Speed. They all print about the same, but the delta design wins hands down when it comes to rapid, non-print moves. It's also not shaking the part all over the place during a print.

g.


That's not true of most cartesian designs with cantilevered beds, and mechanisms like the Ultimaker or Zortrax are capable of similar speeds and acellerations to even the best deltas (at least in X and Y).
Having said that one of the better rated printers (price vs performance) recently has been the Original Prusa I3 Mk2 and that has a moving bed, and shakes the part around as you say.

The speed issue is really over stated these says, the original rostock vs a home built Mendel there was probably a win there, if only because most Mendels were direct extrusion, rather than using a bowden setup.
The one place deltas still win in theory is Z moves.

EDIT

I realize I'm coming off pretty negatively here, it isn't my intention. The RMax is a very good printer, but t annoys me when I see people have unrealistic expectation of totally hassle free printing reinforced, because they are invariably disappointed. The fact is any printer you build from a kit will likely have some teething issues, they will probably be worse on a delta design because the builder likely has no intuition as to what build errors/calibration issues result in what problems in the print or even carriage motion. Auto cal takes a lot of that away, assuming the build is mechanically sound, but it's not a panacea.
I've spent a lot of time over the last 5 years designing, building, purchasing and using various 3D printers, and my current view is that the delta design really does not offer any significant advantage over a cartesian design, but does introduce a great deal of calibration complexity.
Both Cartesian and Delta printers can produce similar results at similar speeds, and in fact my current go to printer is a delta.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:30 pm

I don't think you come off as negative, Polygonhell. It sounds realistic and that is what I came here for. My understanding is that the complexity and problems is going to be at the build/calibration stage and after that is done it's as "trouble free" as a Cartesian printer. They are not giving 100/100 good print's those either :D There is one benefit I see that isn't mentioned here and that is the much larger build area vs space the printer takes. Height is usually not a issue since it's benchspace I loose and the height over the printer up to the ceiling isn't used anyways so delta win by huge on that part.

A friend bought the Prusa i3mk2 and it produces fantastic quality straight out of the box. It would feel like a downgrade from my flashforge tho since it's one extruder and not closed build area for heating during ABS prints. Doesn't look as awesome as the MaxV3 either :D

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by IMBoring25 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:01 pm

The inefficient build area per unit machine footprint is mostly a consequence of the Mendel architecture's bed that travels in Y. Deltas are the most common configuration with a completely stationary bed, but a bed that travels only in Z as is typical for Hbots and CoreXY is not too hard on the footprint of the machine. They're less common than the Mendel but they're out there.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:18 pm

My current printer moves the bed in just Z and look at the big difference in print area vs footprint on the desk. Rostock will take almost the same space on my desk but it has way more print area with the massive 40cm height.

Flashforge:
- Overall dimensions: 320 x 467 x 381 mm.
- Build envelope: 225 x 145 x 150 mm.

Rostock
-450 x 1060 mm
-265mm D x 400mm H Print Area

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by joe » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:34 pm

Minim wrote:My current printer moves the bed in just Z and look at the big difference in print area vs footprint on the desk. Rostock will take almost the same space on my desk but it has way more print area with the massive 40cm height.

Flashforge:
- Overall dimensions: 320 x 467 x 381 mm.
- Build envelope: 225 x 145 x 150 mm.

Rostock
-450 x 1060 mm
-265mm D x 400mm H Print Area



Remember that is cylindrical dimensions not a square. There are many here who would love to use the full build area but there are few that can reliably every time. I have 2 Seeme deltas and 2 ( homemade) Cartesian and while the deltas are fun to mess around with my go to printer is my bigger 300x300x400 cartesian beacuse it is all metal and doesn't need auto calibration and is dimensional correct every time (well, most times anyway) :)

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:02 am

joe wrote:Remember that is cylindrical dimensions not a square. There are many here who would love to use the full build area but there are few that can reliably every time. I have 2 Seeme deltas and 2 ( homemade) Cartesian and while the deltas are fun to mess around with my go to printer is my bigger 300x300x400 cartesian beacuse it is all metal and doesn't need auto calibration and is dimensional correct every time (well, most times anyway) :)


Yes but you can make a 265x265x400 object if I'm not mistaken? Why is it that you can't use the full height on it? Does it get less accurate further up?

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by IMBoring25 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:47 am

You can make a one-extrusion cross 265x265 (or a 265-diameter cylinder topped with a cone) that tapers to a point at the center of the bed at 400 high.

The build volume of a delta is approximated as cylindrical (it's not quite) until the arms get close enough to the top of the travel that the arm towards which the effector needs to move starts getting close to the max endstop. Then the potential build area tapers in something close to a cone until it is a point at the height where the endstops are hit by all three arms.

One of the things that makes the Flashforge have a little larger footprint for its build area is its dual extrusion. Unless you're using something like a Cyclops, dual extrusion means there must be an offset between the two nozzles and the mechanicals have to be able to position either nozzle over the entire build area, so you need extra travel to accommodate the offset. That will be the case regardless of the machine geometry.

The machines I'm kicking around for my next one are an enlarged D-bot derivative and/or a Tantillus. In stock form:

D-Bot footprint: 543 x 353
D-Bot print area: 300 x 200

Tantillus footprint: 225 x 225
Tantillus print area: 100 x 100

The Tantillus is very thrifty, only 62.5mm on each side past the build area. Whether the D-Bot or the Max wins depends on how you do the analysis (what shape the area is where you want to put the machine and whether the rectangular prism or the cone-on-cylinder build volume better accommodates your typical large prints).

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Re: Expecting **too** much from the Max V3?

Post by mhackney » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:50 am

"Core X-Y" has the best attributes of Cartesian and Delta printers IMO. Only the bed moves up and down - which is not stressful on the parts and the light weight X-Y mechanism allows for fast rapids and print speeds. Also, a little known and misunderstood fact about delta printers is that print resolution actually DECREASES as you move from the center of the bed to the periphery. Cartesian printers have the same resolution over their entire print surfaces. It's also a lot easier to build an aligned Cartesian printer with its 90° corners - you can use machinists squares to check and set. Another potential advantage of a Cartesian (Core X-Y) design is either no Bowden or very short Bowden tubes. The early Cartesians with moveable Y - the entire table moved - took up a lot of desk space. This was a primary motivation for my foray into deltas - that and the fast rapids, and overall coolness factor. The Core X-Y design eliminates the moveable Y so you have a fixed footprint printer.

At this stage in the game there are no Core X-Y kits that I'm aware of. Even if there were, a delta printer controlled with a Duet board with auto calibration and the new grid compensation will eliminate any and all gremlins with parallel / planar nozzle moves reliably and consistently. Once calibrated, your printer should stay reasonably well calibrated for long periods of time with the exception of Z=0. This is one property that seems to be affected by ambient temperature and humidity but to be fair, it is on Cartesian printers to some degree too. It is also very easy to do a Z height probe at the start of every print and be perfect every time.

I assert that most folks do not really understand "calibration" and what it means and does on a delta or even a Cartesian printer for that matter. Even Cartesian printers need to be calibrated. And if you calibrate either a delta or Cartesian as long as you do not change its geometry, the calibration does not change. If you had a precise and accurate way to measure these - steps/mm for the axes, tower heights, delta radius, delta arm length, Z height, etc - you could measure them and they would not change each time you do - calibration parameters are intrinsic and define the mechanics of the system. This is true on a Cartesian printer as well but of course you do not have things like delta radius and delta arm length. Once you have these "calibrated" they are static. The issue is that many folks don't fully appreciate this and use "calibration" in an attempt to compensate for build issues (especially since it is very difficult to accurately measure each of the three sets of mechanisms), mechanical hysteresis (i.e. "slop"), and other factors that contribute to lack of precision. There are several ways to deal with these sorts of issues and variability; 1) fix them (the best solution) or 2) compensate for them. Even high end CNC milling stations implement compensation for variability along the length of ball screws, hysteresis in direction changes, etc. because it is extremely expensive to "fix" these issues mechanically. Once your machine is calibrated, unless you have reason to believe the geometry changed, leave it alone and address inconsistencies with either finding the root problem and fixing them or taking advantage of compensation.

For over a year I have enjoyed perfect calibration (in less than 30 seconds) with the dc42 firmware and printing on my deltas (9 at last count, building 2 more now) is a very enjoyable experience. I still lead with my deltas for my 3D manufactured parts but I do have a modified Taz 4, one of the new Prusa i3 MK2s and I'm building a monster size Core X-Y with a 24" x 12" x 15" work envelope.

@Minim: the issue with using all of the Z isn't "accuracy" moving up the Z, the issue is the delta arms take up vertical space so it is not possible to move the effector/nozzle all the way to the top. And also, the upper limit of delta movement is NOT planar, it is a curved surface where the center is higher than the periphery. So thin narrow things can be printed taller than full diameter things.

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Re: Expecting **too** much from the Max V3?

Post by joe » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:49 am

mhackney wrote:"Core X-Y" has the best attributes of Cartesian and Delta printers IMO.


I agree. My "other" Cartesian is a Core x-y but the Z moves up and down while the bed moves x-y. It only has a 150x150x200 build volume and is fun to watch.

Really though, all 3D Printers are WAY cool so have fun with what you have! This is a great hobby for the money.

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:25 pm

Oh I really thought the build height was accounted for as the full diameter :/ Thanks for the great explanation guys. Guess it's back to consider what I really want then. So many choices :X

I just have to attach this geeky pic since I got the idea of getting a Octoprint setup from this thread. Took this picture in my car today when my gf was in the store :D Print surveillance!
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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by geneb » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:15 pm

One thing to consider if you want more Z height - you can order the v3 with taller extrusions. :)

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Re: Expecting to much from the Max V3?

Post by Minim » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:51 pm

Is there any illustration of the build area of a delta like this? I've tried googling it but I can't find it. English is not my first language like you guys probably have noticed so I might be searching for it with the wrong words or something ^^

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