Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

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Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:34 pm

Details of the Duet WiFi have now been published at http://www.duet3d.com. Yes, it does have new stepper drivers supporting higher microstepping - up to 256x in fact. Enjoy!

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby CodonExe » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:59 pm

Very nice! Sexy even! :D
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:13 am

That looks really nice, and has a lot of attractive improvements, but the lack of wired Ethernet is a deal breaker for me. Potentially I would make due with USB, but the use of the incredibly fragile micro-USB device port ruins that workaround. I hope you will find a way to make a version without the ESP8266 in the future. Everything else you did is really appealing, but the limited connectivity is holding me back.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby geneb » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:54 pm

Having WiFi in place of Ethernet is in no way "limited connectivity".

g.
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:18 pm

geneb wrote:Having WiFi in place of Ethernet is in no way "limited connectivity".
g.


How about "Limited Connectivity Options".

But then again, if you have studied the ESP8266, you wouldn't have disagreed in the first place. :-)

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:17 pm

U.S. Water Rockets wrote:
geneb wrote:Having WiFi in place of Ethernet is in no way "limited connectivity".
g.


How about "Limited Connectivity Options".


To a user who has WiFi but no Ethernet cabling, a board with an Ethernet port but no WiFi support has "Limited Connectivity Options" too.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:22 pm

One of our first beta testers for the Duet WiFi has posted a short report of his experiences at http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?416,674926. He has experience of the Duet 0.6 before, so he didn't have much of a learning curve to go through.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:10 am

dc42 wrote:
U.S. Water Rockets wrote:
geneb wrote:Having WiFi in place of Ethernet is in no way "limited connectivity".
g.


How about "Limited Connectivity Options".


To a user who has WiFi but no Ethernet cabling, a board with an Ethernet port but no WiFi support has "Limited Connectivity Options" too.


I suppose then it would be preferable to support the guy with the safe and secure connection than the guy who can't cough up $1.31 for a RJ45 cable so he exposes safety critical hardware to remote hackers.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:52 am

If you use WPA2 encryption on your wireless network and you keep your password secure, then your wireless network is no more open to hackers than your wired network. In either case, security holes in the router firewall or UPNP configuration are probably the main weakness.

We are adding additional security measures in the Duet WiFi firmware.

For someone with a wifi router in one end of the house and a 3D printer on a different floor at the other end, using wired Ethernet is not as simple as buying a cheap Ethernet cable.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:36 am

dc42 wrote:If you use WPA2 encryption on your wireless network and you keep your password secure, then your wireless network is no more open to hackers than your wired network. In either case, security holes in the router firewall or UPNP configuration are probably the main weakness.


The typical person who knows almost nothing of networking, encryption, and security will have a pretty good chance of having none of these configured, leaving their device open to hacking. Just ask the people who had their ESP8266 based Coffee Machines hacked and their entire wireless networks compromised.

Give them a wired Ethernet, any by default they are air gapped from intruders, even if they do nothing.

We are adding additional security measures in the Duet WiFi firmware.


An Ethernet PHY, and jack with integrated magnetics are dirt cheap these days, so you could just add those to the board a lot faster and put your engineering resources into printer specific advances, like the great stuff you did with the new stepper drivers and whatnot.

For someone with a wifi router in one end of the house and a 3D printer on a different floor at the other end, using wired Ethernet is not as simple as buying a cheap Ethernet cable.


Having a hazardous device in a different room than the controller is just asking for trouble, and I would be actively discouraging it. If only out of due diligence to avoid potential future litigation.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby Mac The Knife » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:51 am

Paranoid much? A padlock's main purpose is to keep honest people honest,, if someone wants in, they will find a way.
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby IMBoring25 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:09 am

Again, whether the controller is connected to the LAN over wire or wireless makes zero difference what devices can control it. Anything on the LAN can control it either way unless the network or printer is configured otherwise.

I had my house prewired with RJ45 from the back bedroom to the other bedrooms and the living room and also ran a crossover cable to a second router to provide extra plugs in the master but most people don't have that sophisticated a network and have either one or zero wired Ethernet ports in rooms other than where they keep their routers. Even if the computer is sitting right next to the printer the need for a wired plug will generally limit where it can be placed.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby bot » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:59 pm

I'm going to be holding my nose and pre-ordering a couple boards, but I seriously hope they consider offering a wired Ethernet version. Wifi (only) is so cringe-worthy.
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:53 pm

U.S. Water Rockets wrote:The typical person who knows almost nothing of networking, encryption, and security will have a pretty good chance of having none of these configured, leaving their device open to hacking. Just ask the people who had their ESP8266 based Coffee Machines hacked and their entire wireless networks compromised.

I don't know how it is in your country, but here in the UK routers supplied by ISPs (which is what almost all home user have) are pre-configured to have WPA2 enabled, strong wireless passwords, and strong admin login passwords.

An Ethernet PHY, and jack with integrated magnetics are dirt cheap these days, so you could just add those to the board a lot faster...

To replicate what the ESP8266 gives us (i.e. web server running on a separate processor), we'd also need an Ethernet-capable processor, flash memory chip, at least one crystal and a pile of support components. So not quite as simple and cheap as that. Nevertheless, we're looking into it. Atmel doesn't make any inexpensive low pin-count but Ethernet-capable processors - the smallest/cheapest suitable processor they do is the ATSAM3X4C, which has 84 pins and is way overkill. Perhaps another manufacturer has a more suitable chip.

Having a hazardous device in a different room than the controller is just asking for trouble, and I would be actively discouraging it. If only out of due diligence to avoid potential future litigation.

I agree. But the router may still be a long way from where the printer and the controlling PC are. For example, with VDSL broadband connections here in the UK, the router is usually installed close to the master socket, which is close to wherever the phone line comes into the building.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby Eric » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:48 pm

Can one put an ethernet dongle on the usb port and easily configure it to work?

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:24 pm

Eric wrote:Can one put an ethernet dongle on the usb port and easily configure it to work?


Not easily, because a driver would have to be written for it. But of course you could connect a RPI running Octoprint.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby bot » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:49 pm

Could you make the paneldue handle the webserver and ethernet functions?
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby ramai » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:45 am

I've been considering the Duet. Quick noob question, does the Duet require the use of the web interface in order to function or is that just for setup? Am I able to keep using MatterControl?
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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:12 am

ramai wrote:I've been considering the Duet. Quick noob question, does the Duet require the use of the web interface in order to function or is that just for setup? Am I able to keep using MatterControl?


You can drive the Duet completely through USB if you want and never use the web interface, not even for setup. However, the web interface is so much better than the USB host program UIs that most Duet owners use nothing else.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby dc42 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:15 am

bot wrote:Could you make the paneldue handle the webserver and ethernet functions?


No, because the communication between PanelDue and Duet is async serial, which would be too slow to upload files with a good speed. For the communication between the ESP8266 and the ARM processor on the Duet, we use SPI at up to 40MHz clock speed.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:32 am

dc42 wrote:To replicate what the ESP8266 gives us (i.e. web server running on a separate processor), we'd also need an Ethernet-capable processor, flash memory chip, at least one crystal and a pile of support components. So not quite as simple and cheap as that. Nevertheless, we're looking into it. Atmel doesn't make any inexpensive low pin-count but Ethernet-capable processors - the smallest/cheapest suitable processor they do is the ATSAM3X4C, which has 84 pins and is way overkill. Perhaps another manufacturer has a more suitable chip.


According to your website, the new Duet uses an Atmel SAM4E8E.

The SAM4E8E is only available in a 144 Pin package (LFBGA or LQFP)

The image you posted of the new Duet confirms that you are using the SAM4E8E. I can read the part number and the pin count is 144 on your board.
DuetWiFi.jpg
SAM4E8E LQFP144 on Board


I find it odd that you would say an 84 pin CPU is "way overkill", while using a 144 pin CPU on your board.

I also find it a bit unnerving that you suggest that it was necessary to omit wired Ethernet because it would have forced you to pick an Ethernet Enabled MCU that you imply would negatively impact the cost or size of the board, but you fail to mention that the CPU that you are currently using on your boards IS already Ethernet Enabled.

That's right. The ATSAM4E8E on the Duet indeed has an Ethernet MAC built in.

All you need to add Wired Ethernet to the current board is a PHY (about $1.00) a crystal or oscillator ($0.50), an RJ45 with integrated magnetics ($1.50), and a handful of discrete resistors/capacitors totaling no more than $0.05 in cost.

I don't know what you're paying for those ESP8266 WiFi modules, but you show one with FCC certs in the image (I assume that you're not going to ship product with the certified modules, since you show it) and those cost about $5.00 each.

In conclusion, there is no price or hardware advantage to making a WiFi version over a Wired Ethernet version, as you insist in your post. Most everything you mention against Wired Ethernet is just plain factually incorrect. That does not give me warm fuzzies about the product in general.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:49 am

One more thing:

People who clamor for WiFi can easily add Wifi to a Wired Ethernet device, but NOT the other way around.

Adding a Wireless Bridge to a Wired Ethernet device to allow someone to put it on a Wifi network can be done inexpensively. You can find wireless bridge devices for $15 to $20 (US). You can also use many Wireless Access Points as a bridge, and those are dirt cheap as well.

There is no easy way to add wired Ethernet to a WiFi only device. It can only be used with WiFi networks, and places where that is not allowed will not be able to use the device.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby Nylocke » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:11 am

U.S. Water Rockets wrote:One more thing:

People who clamor for WiFi can easily add Wifi to a Wired Ethernet device, but NOT the other way around.

Adding a Wireless Bridge to a Wired Ethernet device to allow someone to put it on a Wifi network can be done inexpensively. You can find wireless bridge devices for $15 to $20 (US). You can also use many Wireless Access Points as a bridge, and those are dirt cheap as well.

There is no easy way to add wired Ethernet to a WiFi only device. It can only be used with WiFi networks, and places where that is not allowed will not be able to use the device.


I think you're making some broad statements. If you're referring to a convention hall or something where you brought your printer, all you have to do is disable wifi and run it over USB or via the excellent display that is available. Should be pretty easy, and unless you bring a router or something to set up a LAN connection to your printer (which you could also do with the WiFi) you have the same problem with the Ethernet. What theoretical situation are you thinking of where this is a problem?

I remember seeing 2 or 3 posts about people trying to do the wired to wireless thing with various tools, all without success in the two threads we have open about this.

U.S. Water Rockets wrote:I find it odd that you would say an 84 pin CPU is "way overkill", while using a 144 pin CPU on your board.


That CPU is static, it has to be there its what is running the show. An extra 84 pin CPU for one extra function is way overkill because thats a lot of extra board space.

Also it seems you missed this:

dc42 wrote:To replicate what the ESP8266 gives us (i.e. web server running on a separate processor), we'd also need an Ethernet-capable processor,


The web server is on a separate processor in a package smaller than what is available for ethernet. The 84 pin CPU (what they found from Atmel) would be necessary to emulate the functionality they are getting from the wifi module, in addition to the current CPU on board. A lot of extra board space it seems.

From my point of view, they haven't lied about anything. They aren't using that interface because they don't want to tax the CPU with the web server load too.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby U.S. Water Rockets » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:27 pm

Nylocke wrote:I think you're making some broad statements. If you're referring to a convention hall or something where you brought your printer, all you have to do is disable wifi and run it over USB or via the excellent display that is available. Should be pretty easy, and unless you bring a router or something to set up a LAN connection to your printer (which you could also do with the WiFi) you have the same problem with the Ethernet. What theoretical situation are you thinking of where this is a problem?


I was thinking of work environments where WiFi is not allowed, because of possible security reasons, or if you are in a location where you do not have access like a convention as you said.

I'd be happy to use USB, or an SD card, but the current board laybout has them demoted to microUSB and MicroSD connectors, which are a lot harder to access, and are more prone to damage. Their location on the edge of the board where the unfortunate WiFi antenna protrudes means I will have to have a gaping maw in the side of my printer to access them. MicroUSB cards are a poor choice for portable storage as well, since they are excessively small for moving around.

Nylocke wrote:That CPU is static, it has to be there its what is running the show. An extra 84 pin CPU for one extra function is way overkill because thats a lot of extra board space.

Also it seems you missed this:

dc42 wrote:To replicate what the ESP8266 gives us (i.e. web server running on a separate processor), we'd also need an Ethernet-capable processor,


The web server is on a separate processor in a package smaller than what is available for ethernet. The 84 pin CPU (what they found from Atmel) would be necessary to emulate the functionality they are getting from the wifi module, in addition to the current CPU on board. A lot of extra board space it seems.

From my point of view, they haven't lied about anything. They aren't using that interface because they don't want to tax the CPU with the web server load too.


I didn't miss anything. I dispute the need for a dedicated CPU for a Webserver, especially considering that the host CPU has Wired Ethernet built in that is going totally unused.

Web Servers are not complicated, and they are not huge consumers of bandwidth. If you need an extra CPU to host a web server, then you're not doing something right.

Besides, who said a 3D printer needs a web server? You could write a simple FTP server and FTP the files in that way, if porting one of the Open Source Webservers to the printer is too difficult.

It's a shame that an expensive feature of the core CPU is going unused, and an extra $5.00 is added to the BOM as a workaround, simply because it is lacking software.

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Re: Duet WiFi details published and pre-order window open

Postby Nylocke » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:39 pm

The web server is what makes this board unique. Its one of the key selling points for a lot of people. You're arguing that they should get rid of the feature that the wifi on this board (and ethernet on the old board) added so you can get ethernet back? for what purpose then?

I don't know enough about what software dc/others have written for the duet, so I can't comment on how the web server works/what it needs other than wifi or ethernet.

If you have plans to use it in a location without wifi being allowed, you could easily get the LCD display, and from what I see it has an SD card reader on it (eliminating the need for access to the board directly). No need to access the USB port or "poor choice for portable storage" slot.

As far as MicroSD goes, not sure why its so bad. I just keep mine plugged into the device that is using it during transportation and I throw in a MSD to SD adapter with it and I do just fine.


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