Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

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Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:14 pm

It seamed reasonable to start a new topic in this regard. As I learn how to do this it would be great to have a common source of how we all multi-extruder print.

I have been printing the BandAid in multi-color using the Diamond Print head and three Nema-17 geared (5.2:1) BondTech extruders. The image is a MC MS file which was sliced for absolute extrusion. It printed nice as absolute extrusion (hd to change the M83 to M82 g-code in the print), but I did have some extruder pauses and the tool change doesn't like absolute extrusion (loud extruder noises). With this print and the print file attached, I manually inserted the M567 P0 E1.00:0.00:0.00 gcode into the print file gcode at each change in geometric shape. This switches the extruder and extrudes each color at 100% (i.e. 1.0).

Thus for this print I did the following:
Run extruder 1 (Blue) using Tool 0 at 100% each: M567 P0 E1.00:0.00:0.00 for the circle
Run extruder 2 (Green) using Tool 0 at 100% each: M567 P0 E0.00:1.00:0.00 for the hexagon
Run extruder 3 (Red) using Tool 0 at 100% each: M567 P0 E0.00:0.00:1.00 for the square

Here is the final image. Kinda cool!!! I'm now printing at various percentages of Red, Green and Blue by mixing up the ratios.

The file attached is sliced for relative extrusion. Of note this slice file is not as nice as my slice file created on MC MS. I need to work with Slic3r and tweak it for better prints. Also will work on getting KissSlicer up and running.

Here is a link to my g.code files that I used to do these prints (viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7303&start=175#p89250) which is part of my build thread for the Diamond Head(viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7303&start=125#p88841).
Attachments
BandAid-Slic3r.gcode.txt
(1.8 MiB) Downloaded 13 times
image.jpeg
image.jpeg
image.jpeg
Last edited by 3D-Print on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:02 pm

Here I attempted to print with various ratios of Blue, Green and Red. Sliced using Slic3r and relative extrusion. Printed HatchBox ABS at 228 (first 2/3rds) and 245 (top layers). Red is actually SeeMeCNC ABS.

What you can see us that there is incomplete mixing of the three colors. In fact when the print edge is 120 degrees to the color filament feed into the Diamond, then that color predominants that printed surface.

It is hard to see but from the top (slightly over extruded) you can see within an individual bead of extruded filament layering of the different colors. Look at the outer walls and you can see it best in the +/- picture.

Mixing improved when I increased the temp up to 245 degrees but was clearly still present.

Now how to get better mixing of the filaments??????
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Maybe different ABS (i.e. HatchBox and SeeMe CNC) filament with different composition is part of the problem. However I have read and others have noted tha lack of complete mixing.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:18 pm

Here is a slightly better image of the top of the BandAid print.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby bubbasnow » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:40 pm

without some sort of mixing tube you probably wont get a perfect mixture...
Image

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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:34 am

That would make sense. I do have a message out to JJPowelly regarding his method for mixing.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:27 pm

With the diamond head there is a significant amount of stinging. I wonder if this is due to the large mass of a heat in the print head. Regardless.......

This stringing is virtually resolved with the firmware command "M207 S6.0 F2400" This command retracts all three extruders of the diamond with each retraction. This M207 is inserted in the config.g and you need to slice your print files with the "use firmware" retraction. I will post a couple of pictures in a bit.
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7.0 mm retraction via M207
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6.0 mm retraction via M207
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2 mm retraction via Slic3r
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby dc42 » Sun May 01, 2016 4:51 am

3D-Print, do you still have an issue with tool changes when using absolute extruder coordinates? If so, check your tool change files tpre0.g, tfree0.g, tpost0.g etc. If they have any G1 E commands in them to retract or extrude filament, make sure they have the M83 command before that. You don't need M82 afterwards because the initial absolute/relative extruder setting is restored when a macro file completes.

If that isn't the cause of the problem, let me know and I will open a bug report.

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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 01, 2016 6:51 pm

dc42 wrote:3D-Print, do you still have an issue with tool changes when using absolute extruder coordinates? If so, check your tool change files tpre0.g, tfree0.g, tpost0.g etc. If they have any G1 E commands in them to retract or extrude filament, make sure they have the M83 command before that. You don't need M82 afterwards because the initial absolute/relative extruder setting is restored when a macro file completes.

If that isn't the cause of the problem, let me know and I will open a bug report.


I will double check. Thanks!
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Thu May 05, 2016 7:50 am

dc42 wrote:3D-Print, do you still have an issue with tool changes when using absolute extruder coordinates? If so, check your tool change files tpre0.g, tfree0.g, tpost0.g etc. If they have any G1 E commands in them to retract or extrude filament, make sure they have the M83 command before that. You don't need M82 afterwards because the initial absolute/relative extruder setting is restored when a macro file completes.

If that isn't the cause of the problem, let me know and I will open a bug report.


I am able to sent a T0, T1 and etc in the command line without issue. This really appear to have been a problem with my relative vs. absolute extrusion settings in the slicer.

Thanks,
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Multi-Filament Extrusion: Ideas for Better Filament Mixing

Postby 3D-Print » Thu May 05, 2016 12:39 pm

Was wondering what other people would think about the following to help facilitate with mixing of colors using the Diamond Print head or cyclops.

Would it be practical to have subtle extrusion and retraction (1-3 mm) in a pulsing fashion that would alternate between any of the three extruders (or two extruders). If you set the timing correct between extruders it should be easy to maintain a stable flow of filament while facilitating better mixing and avoid filament steaming as suggested in the above posts.

Would such rapidly alternating extrusion and retraction be a way to facilitate better mixing of the colors in the print head?

Could you in addition variably modulate the flow rates of the extruders in concert to better mix filaments?

This would potentially abuse the extruders!

Other thoughts on such a wild hair idea??
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat May 07, 2016 3:43 pm

I've been working on multicolor printing with two STL files merged and two extruders. On the left is my first attempt, middle second attempt and right my third and most recent. While getting better there is some challenges with the diamond and making sure you print the infill first with enough perimeter loops to ensure you clear the prior color.

I have another print running now with a single setting change.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sat May 07, 2016 5:12 pm

This time I added to "wipe towers" to clear the Diamond of filament before printing the dragon or heart.

Here is the first image and it looks good thus far!!!
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby dc42 » Sat May 07, 2016 5:36 pm

3D-Print wrote:
dc42 wrote:3D-Print, do you still have an issue with tool changes when using absolute extruder coordinates? If so, check your tool change files tpre0.g, tfree0.g, tpost0.g etc. If they have any G1 E commands in them to retract or extrude filament, make sure they have the M83 command before that. You don't need M82 afterwards because the initial absolute/relative extruder setting is restored when a macro file completes.

If that isn't the cause of the problem, let me know and I will open a bug report.


I am able to sent a T0, T1 and etc in the command line without issue. This really appear to have been a problem with my relative vs. absolute extrusion settings in the slicer.

Thanks,


I have added this to the list of issues to be investigated. It's low priority for now, because the workaround is to use relative extrusion, which is recommended for RepRapFirmware anyway. Let me know if for any reason you are unable to use relative extrusion.

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Re: Multi-Filament Extrusion: Ideas for Better Filament Mixing

Postby dc42 » Sat May 07, 2016 5:45 pm

3D-Print wrote:Was wondering what other people would think about the following to help facilitate with mixing of colors using the Diamond Print head or cyclops.

Would it be practical to have subtle extrusion and retraction (1-3 mm) in a pulsing fashion that would alternate between any of the three extruders (or two extruders). If you set the timing correct between extruders it should be easy to maintain a stable flow of filament while facilitating better mixing and avoid filament steaming as suggested in the above posts.

Would such rapidly alternating extrusion and retraction be a way to facilitate better mixing of the colors in the print head?

Could you in addition variably modulate the flow rates of the extruders in concert to better mix filaments?

This would potentially abuse the extruders!

Other thoughts on such a wild hair idea??


That sounds viable, however I think it would only stand any chance of working if using direct (non-Bowden) extruders. In a Bowden system, the elasticity of the filament in the Bowden tube would almost certainly take up all the motion.

Also, bear in mind that the extrusion speed out of the nozzle is something like 20 times the filament feed rate. Therefore, if you modulated the flow rates so as to cause striations in the filament at 0.01mm intervals, when exiting the nozzle the interval would be 0.2mm so the striations would be clearly visible if they didn't mix well in the nozzle..

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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 08, 2016 6:45 am

Here are all my prints thus far. The last being with the side towers/rectangles not in the prior picture. I used green this time since I could see where he red and green would mix/overlap. I am going to reprint in blue/red again.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 08, 2016 6:48 am

Here it is as it sits on the print bed. Still a bit of stringing despite retractions set at 8mm.

Addendum: I've been using KISS Slicer Pro, which I really. I will post my settings and firmware files later today.

Off to work!
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Mon May 09, 2016 10:51 pm

Here are my files I am currently using. If it helps someone..... Awesome..... If questions, let me know... I also included the dragon STL.

I am trying to figure out how to export my KISS settings........ Once I have these, I will attach them.
Attachments
tpre0.g.txt
(185 Bytes) Downloaded 23 times
tpost0.g.txt
(282 Bytes) Downloaded 15 times
tfree0.g.txt
(137 Bytes) Downloaded 13 times
resume.g.txt
(170 Bytes) Downloaded 8 times
pause.g.txt
(213 Bytes) Downloaded 7 times
bed.g.txt
(1.83 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
config.g5-9-2016Upload.rtf
(8.13 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
Dragon-Ext1 Heart-Ext2 200 5-8-2016-Kiss-Slicer-Wipe-Towers.gcode
(6.19 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 15, 2016 9:58 pm

I found out (I think!!) how to make sure that wipe towers are the first items to print when changing to a new color. Thus, clearing the Diamond head of the prior color.

In KISS Slicer, place/open your wipe towers first (which placed them first in the list (see image). Then place/open the print STL of interest after the wipe towers. Here is a picture of the print that is currently finishing where the Benchy Boat was first of the list of items printing. You can see the color change occurs with the Benchy Boat, not on the towers.

And I'm still over extruding a bit. :shock:

Next I will print with the wipe towers first in the list, and the Benchy Boat boat last in the list (see KISS Slicer screen shot picture). Hopefully, this will prevent mixing of the blue, green and red of the boat with color changes occurring first at the wipe tower/color change tower.

Addendum: added the pictures.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Mon May 16, 2016 9:30 am

Although placing the boat last in the list did help to minimize the color mixing, it is still present. I need to find if there is a way to pick an object and force the slicer to change to a specific color on that object. Thus, force the slicer to switch tools such that changing to T1 (green with this print) always occurs at the green wipe/color change tower to clear the prior color from the head.

Not sure if this exists. Has anyone run into this functionality........ Have I missed it somewhere.

Wonder if this can be done in the firmware?
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby Nylocke » Mon May 16, 2016 12:47 pm

If you click on the object in the side panel it will pull up an Extruder Mapping window. There you can select each object or each mesh and select which extruder is matched with which object. You can then set each tower to be from its own extruder.

Screen Shot 2016-05-16 at 11.44.38 AM.png


Also on OS X use CMD-Shift-4 to do an area screenshot and CMD-Shift-3 to do a full screen screen shot.

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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Mon May 16, 2016 12:57 pm

Thanks Nylocke. I have been able to define each mesh as a specific extruder and defined each of the three towers to an individual extruder.

Is there a trick to forcing the printer to print the tower as the first object from the defined extruder for any one layer? This would clear the print head of the prior color before moving to the print of interest.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby Nylocke » Mon May 16, 2016 2:16 pm

I'm assuming if you put the prime structures before the main object it will order them like that, but I'm unsure.

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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Sun May 22, 2016 11:39 am

I have increased the number of outside loops and this has helped significantly to avoid notable blending of color with each color change. Using the prime/wipre towers helps and I would still like to figure a way to designate the tower as the first thing to print with a defined color when changing a color/tool.

Regarding the challenges of mixing, I have been reading on RepRap they have used PLA transparent to mix color with the best success. Thus, I have ordered their cyan, magenta and yellow PLA to play with which hopefully works better than the ABS I have tried to use.
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Re: Duet and Multi-Color/Multi-Filament Extrusion

Postby 3D-Print » Mon May 23, 2016 1:43 pm

Nylocke wrote:I'm assuming if you put the prime structures before the main object it will order them like that, but I'm unsure.


I found in the support tab of KISSlicer the ability to select a priming tower which if I read the manual correctly will print this tower first with each tool change. I will try this and see how it works.
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